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Newest Scenarios |
CMAK |
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Kampfgruppe Richter in Budel. Dilemma, fight the allies or retreat?
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A Very British Civil War
Note: this is clearly a “what-if” scenario, loosely based on the bustling miniatures war gaming off-shoot of the same name. Outstanding work has been done by Solway Crafts and Miniatures, and I credit them with the brilliance of this war gaming theme.
Background
England, May 1938 (designer note: note the in-game calendar notes “1944”; this is only to create the optics of lush green environment of the British Isles)
Weather: overcast, mild, dry
The very social fabric of Great Britain was torn during the apocalypse that was The Great War. The mightiest empire on the globe ended victorious, but at what cost? The rigid social hierarchy was shaken, and the world wide waves of social change did not stop at the English Channel. Class structure, worker’s rights, regional animosities have all brewed in the decades following the Great War. This has all been exacerbated by the crippling economic crisis of the 1930s, to which the ever cautious government responded to by constricting public spending ever more.
In May 1937, King Edward VIII of the United Kingdom married Wallis Simpson. The marriage to Wallis was not supported by Stanley Baldwin, the British Prime Minister; and King Edward refused to abdicate. This marriage left the British government, and most of the people, alienated; and public hatred for King Edward and Queen Wallis rose. Parliament was torn, and in the general election of 1937, Baldwin was defeated. The Conservative party, ripped by the issue of King Edward’s marriage, as well as economic and regional tensions, broke apart, and a large segment of the Tory support went to the British Union of Fascists. Oswald Mosley’s promise to ensure public order, and shore up the Empire, resonated with a public tired of public disturbances, strikes in essential services, and the economic malaise. The Labour party too split, with the more radical sections forming their own splinter parties which ran their own candidates. The 1937 election results saw a fractured parliament, and although only winning slightly over 200 seats, and less than 30% of the vote, the BUF formed the largest caucus in the House of Commons. King Edward VIII asked Oswald Mosely to form a government. Mosley did so and almost immediately issued “Orders of Council”, outlawing strikes, restricting collective bargaining, and establishing new offences for unauthorized public gatherings, and publishing “any article intended to alarm the public”. Any opposition was swiftly responded to, if not by the police, then by Mosely’s own BUF Blackshirts, the BUF’s paramilitary wing.
In January 1938, a protest by Dockyard workers in Liverpool was brutally crushed by the BUF and elements of the Regular Army; and violent clashes began across the country; between the Kings troops and those of several other factions. The British Civil War has begun!
Factions: The outbreak of conflict led several groups to attempt to seize the country or their own personal goals. Major factions included:
On the Right (Axis in this scenario
* The Edwardian Army – elements of the professional Army, bound to King Edward VIII.
* The Royal Navy and Royal Marines – bound by tradition and culture to remain loyal to the reigning monarch, and the majority have done so.
* The British Union of Fascists (or “BUF”) – the dominant political party, led by Oswald MOSLEY and heavily backed by German and Italian interests. Mosley has garnered considerable support in his efforts to restore order internally and restore the status of Britain’s Empire
* The Mosley Youth – a “social club” of young men, who have been drilled and armed by unknown sources, and have formed para-military units to push the BUF agenda.
* Foreign Volunteer Units: after the recruiting of numerous foreign elements to fight in the Spanish Civil War, similar detachments have been formed to back those with similar agendas in the British Civil War. Contingents from other fascist and imperialist sympathizers have been formed. Here we will see the presence of the “Hanoverian Legion”, volunteers from Germany, who are backing the Edwardian and BUF efforts
On the Left (Allied in this scenario)
* The Albertine Army – elements of the regular forces, plus most of the “Territorial Army”, backing the young Prince Albert’s claim to the throne.
* The Anglican League - A large army led by a group of bishops and archbishops, they were aligned with the Albertine Army. Many are veterans of the Great War.
* The People’s Party Army - Made up of disillusioned Labour party supporters, disgruntled workers and Spanish Civil War veterans, they are seeking to turn Britain into a Socialist state based upon Lenin's Russia.
* The Farmer’s Union: radical small plot farmers and farm working hands, seeking better pay, price subsidies, and land redistribution. They are heavily influenced by Marxist doctrine.
* The Student’s Union: like students before and after them, the university students have ramparts to thwart whomever they view as authoritarian,
* Foreign Volunteer Units: after the recruiting of numerous foreign elements to fight in the Spanish Civil War, similar detachments have been formed to back those with similar agendas in the British Civil War. Groups of Americans, Canadians, and ANZAC units have been formed; here we will see the Lafayette Battalion, formed of French volunteers, many fresh from the savage fighting in Spain.
This scenario occurs in the West Coast port town of Twaddlemore. Twaddlemore is the home base for a small Royal Navy destroyer flotilla, as well as being a mid-sized port for international commerce. Given that the United Kingdom lives or dies based on this freedom to trade overseas, the port is vital to all in this conflict. The Royal Navy, which for the most part has remained loyal to King Edward VIII, dispatched the flotilla two days ago to join the rest of the fleet, tasked with stemming the flow of foreign volunteers coming to fight for their faction of choice. Many of these foreigners have come directly from fighting for the Nationalists or the Republicans in Spain, who have endured two years of their own brutal Civil War already.
Yesterday the dock workers, who are heavily influenced by communist agents and are affiliated with the People’s Party, refused to move armaments stored in the dock warehouses. Instead, they armed themselves and fighting broke out when security staff sought to control the situation. Who opened fire first is both in dispute and a moot point at this juncture. A company of the Army’s Provost Corps was rushed to Twaddlemore by train, but a bomb was used to derail the trail just outside of town. Multiple factions are either in town currently or rumoured to be headed this way. The Telephone Exchange is the key to communicating with the rest of the country, and is clearly a goal to secure. Likewise, the docks and the armaments stored there in are also of immense value. Lastly, the mysterious new Wireless Tower being built on the south shore is of unknown value, as the work crews are from “away” and appear to be quite Teutonic in manner.
This battle will surely prove that the term “Civil War” is clearly a misnomer.
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A historically fictional 'what if' look at the events leading up to the Deutsche Afrika Korps capture of Tobruk in June 1942.
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SCENARIO DESCRIPTION
A meeting engagement played out in the wooded terrain of the Ardennes at the beginning of the Bulge. 60+ turns.
The Germans are trying to seize important territory: bridges, cross-roads, and towns to allow breakthrough armored thrusts. Central to this map is the village of L’Shone and its surrounding road network.
The Americans are trying to occupy the same terrain to prevent its use by the Germans.
Best played as: H2H
Second Best played as: H2H
(Not designed for vs. AI play due to mounted units)
Map edge friendly to Axis: East. Map edge friendly to Allies: West.
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It is hard to believe that it was only a week ago when we first heard of “The Outbreak”. Initially it was thought to be a terrorist biological attack, with outbreaks in large cities overwhelming medical facilities. But soon it was apparent it was much more… the more we hear, the more we realize that we know very little – the cause – the prognosis – or the scale of this crisis. All remain unknown – at least to the general populace. What the “government” knows may be something else again.
You are Jack McCann, police chief in the small coastal tourist town of Shady Acres, Maine. Normally by this time of the year, your town is overrun with loud tourists from the cities of the East Coast. If only that were the case.
Four days ago a large staff of the Center for Disease Control showed up at the Town Hall, and brusquely informed the Mayor, Chuck Zeto, that the Federal Government was immediately taking control of “Shady Island”, a favourite picnic spot in the bay. This was all one-way communication, you don’t know much more other than soon thereafter a convoy of sealed trucks arrived and barbed wire was being strung across the access bridge to the island.
The National Guard has been mobilized, and your own police force has been placed under the command of the governor’s office.
And yet even now, you are not sure why. A strange illness has swept the globe, but what little news was initially released was like something from a bad movie. Now that trickle of news has stopped altogether. The official story is that a Chinese cyber attack has shut down the Internet, but this being Small Town America, there are a lot of conspiracy theories floating about.
The Mayor, Chuck Zeto, who also is the local bank manager, has asked that citizens assist in securing the town from whatever threats may arise. Given that the local National Rifle Association sponsored Chuck’s last campaign, their members were eager to show their affinity for the 2nd amendment and reaffirm their ownership of large capacity magazines and assault rifles. With some hesitation, you agreed to deputize these men, but have asked them to stay at home until they may actually be required. Their training and experience doesn’t necessarily match their enthusiasm.
You were at your office all night. You had a call from Doctor Jacobie at the hospital. Dr. Jacobie, a Vietnam war draft dodger who only returned from Canada in the 1990s, is determined to ignore what he considers a “fascist edict” that all patients in suspected cases of the “outbreak” be turned over to the C.D.C. immediately and quarantined on the Island. “It reminds me of the interment of the Japanese in 1942!” Jacobie ranted, and he said he would treat all patients as “patients, not criminals”. At that, you sent two teams of part time deputies to the hospital to deal with any issues that may arise.
The town is an important transportation hub, in that the coastal railway runs through the town. The Railway has deployed their own security at the train station, as if there is an epidemic, it is important to prevent those infected from traveling. Hopefully they have enough staff to do the job.
You remained in your office all night, and it seemed that things may be calming down, but then with a complete news black out, and the mute C.D.C. guards by the island Park, who knows? You did receive several calls from citizens overnight, reporting screams and other noises from the areas near cemeteries last night; typically the local teens will go there to drink and smoke up. Although you usually will send a Deputy to put the run on them, there are more important things to do now.
The sun is coming up, but a heavy thick fog has blankets the town. A convoy of C.D.C. relieve staff are expected in from Bangor any minute; hopefully they have some news. To allow your exhausted staff get some needed rest, two detachments of National Guard troops will be arriving, one is about 5 minutes away and a second convoy from the east in another 5 minutes after that. It will be good to get home and hit the sheets. You are so tired you feel like the walking dead.
Your phone rings. It is the security detail from the train station. Old man Codger, a elderly farmer who lives north east of town, has just shown up at the Rail station, out of breath and terrified. He is rambling about being attacked at his home, and that the only way he could escape is by setting the buildings on fire. You had better send a Deputy to go interview him. It sounds bizarre.
The phone rings again… it is Deputy Boomhauer at the hospital. He sounds quite distraught. Apparently the hospital was overwhelmed with patients overnight, and now he reports the motion detector alarms in the morgue have gone off.
At that second the switch board lights up, and several simultaneous “10-78” calls are received – “officer need assistance!”… What the?????”
This scenario is
1) Meant strictly for play against the AI. Although it one player wants to try playing the Axis/Zombies, please feel free.
2) The scenario is meant to be strictly for fun.
3) Watch you ammo loads. Shoot for the head. You only have the ammo you brought into the fight.
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August 12,1944. France. SE of Argentan.
Married platoons of U.S. 5th Armored Division
night out-posts.
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France, 1940 - Case Red.
Heavy Tanks of the 4th DCR must smash a hole in the advancing German line - but there are complications.
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At Dornot, the U.S. Third Army's XX Corps' first attempt to establish a bridgehead on the Moselle River south of Metz met bloody failure. Two and a half miles south of Dornot the XX Corps' 10 Infantry Regiment is trying once more to establish a permanent bridgehead across the Moselle at Arnaville. Since the first U.S. troops crossed at Arnaville on the night of 8/9 September, the Germans have been launching increasingly vicious counterattacks in an effort to destroy the bridgehead and repeat what happened at Dornot.
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This is an Aug 44 meeting engagement between Brit and German mech forces in Belgium. The map is based on a satellite photo of Neubruck just southeast of St. Vith.
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Cassino town was destroyed by Allied Airforces on Wednesday, March 15th, along with the abby known as Monte Cassino. "The town was blown assunder and beaten into heaps of rubble, the official British history reported. Yet hundreds of bombs and thousands of shells failed to pound the town to powder, contrary to Allied expectations, nor were the surviving defenders 'rendered comatose', as planned." --The Day of Battle
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CMBB |
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The Axis launch a major attack on the Allied defenses.
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Soviet vs. German Meeting Engagement. 60+ turns.
Best played as: H2H (Not recommended for vs. AI play due to mounted infantry.)
In recent weeks, this industrial center has been the scene of increasingly sharp clashes between recon units and regular forces. Both sides have traded jabs over this important airplane fabrication city. Both have moved into the town and then been forced out again. No one seems to be able to hold it. The landing gear assembly plant on the edge of town was occupied by the Red Army a few days ago and then burned and destroyed as the Wehrmacht forced them out. Much of the town lies untouched, but the workers and residents know it is just a matter of time before a major battle rages through the streets of their city…
After another bloody engagement, both sides have backed off. Again, in the still of a Sunday morning under the cover of a pounding rainstorm, both sides push forces forward to gain possession of the city.
No one is sure where the front lines lie. Is the enemy in front of you? Or is he gone?
Push forward, as so many before you have tried, and hold this town once and for all!
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This is a CMBB scenario, modelling Plan Yellow in France in May 1940.
It is a "dynamic flag" scenario, on a large map that will provide many options in attack and defence.
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July 1941, a german advance detachment, composed of motorized infantry with Stug support, attempts to cut off retreating russian forces.
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Russians attack three German-held villages in an attempt to secure the flank of a future offensive.
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July, 1944. Operation Bagration already going on since one month. The german north front runs danger to be cut off. Setting down of german troops in western direction
runs among constant attacks of soviet armoured shock forces...
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43-02-01, South. SS commandos save Kleist's troops from encirclement. Fictional.
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42-07-10, South. Axis forces in Group A cross the Donits to secure northern flank in the beggining of Fall Blau Operation. Semi-fictional.
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October, 1942
In the northern Caucaus, along the Terek river line, the battle has been raging brutally for nearly two months. Germany's 13.Panzer-Division tasked with taking the key junction city of Vladikavkaz (Ordzhonikidze) has been stymied in it's every attempt to breakthrough.
But now, at the end of October a break has been achieved through the first mountain range and panzers are rolling along the valley near Ardon, on a back route to Vladikavkaz.
The Russians, somewhat disorganized, are withdrawing to new positions. A desperate stand is ordered to slow the German advance and buy time to set-up the new defensive positions.
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Russian breakout from a Kessel against a German blocking force.
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CMBO |
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German infantry dawn attack during the Battle of the Bulge. American infantry caught off-guard whilst lining up for chow.
VPs for casualties and German exit points only.
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Before dawn on D-Day the British airbourne must destroy the gun batteries at Vierville.
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Koen - A Town to conquer
*****************************************
a Couple of weeks ago the Allies have conquered one of the major towns in France.
Now the Germans broke through the American line of defense in the Ardennes and are advancing rapidly towards this town.
Can the Allied commander hold this town?
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November 1944, the French 2nd Armored Division is tasked to breach the German fortified line of the Vosges mountains. This battle takes place on the second days of the attack. The different French Task forces are competing with each other in order to be the first to reach the plain of Alsace. The company team Minjonnet (part of the Task Force Massu) blocked close to Voyer in a narrow valley by German remnants of the 708. ID has to bypass quickly this resistance. The French can be sure that their old enemy is not about to ease their action !
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An American WWII GI's dream come true- a "what if" American assault on Berlin AND a chance to personally bag the ol'Führer himself!
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Arnhem Bridge battle. British airborne against armoured SS.
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Updated Scenarios |
CMAK |
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A Very British Civil War
Note: this is clearly a “what-if” scenario, loosely based on the bustling miniatures war gaming off-shoot of the same name. Outstanding work has been done by Solway Crafts and Miniatures, and I credit them with the brilliance of this war gaming theme.
Background
England, May 1938 (designer note: note the in-game calendar notes “1944”; this is only to create the optics of lush green environment of the British Isles)
Weather: overcast, mild, dry
The very social fabric of Great Britain was torn during the apocalypse that was The Great War. The mightiest empire on the globe ended victorious, but at what cost? The rigid social hierarchy was shaken, and the world wide waves of social change did not stop at the English Channel. Class structure, worker’s rights, regional animosities have all brewed in the decades following the Great War. This has all been exacerbated by the crippling economic crisis of the 1930s, to which the ever cautious government responded to by constricting public spending ever more.
In May 1937, King Edward VIII of the United Kingdom married Wallis Simpson. The marriage to Wallis was not supported by Stanley Baldwin, the British Prime Minister; and King Edward refused to abdicate. This marriage left the British government, and most of the people, alienated; and public hatred for King Edward and Queen Wallis rose. Parliament was torn, and in the general election of 1937, Baldwin was defeated. The Conservative party, ripped by the issue of King Edward’s marriage, as well as economic and regional tensions, broke apart, and a large segment of the Tory support went to the British Union of Fascists. Oswald Mosley’s promise to ensure public order, and shore up the Empire, resonated with a public tired of public disturbances, strikes in essential services, and the economic malaise. The Labour party too split, with the more radical sections forming their own splinter parties which ran their own candidates. The 1937 election results saw a fractured parliament, and although only winning slightly over 200 seats, and less than 30% of the vote, the BUF formed the largest caucus in the House of Commons. King Edward VIII asked Oswald Mosely to form a government. Mosley did so and almost immediately issued “Orders of Council”, outlawing strikes, restricting collective bargaining, and establishing new offences for unauthorized public gatherings, and publishing “any article intended to alarm the public”. Any opposition was swiftly responded to, if not by the police, then by Mosely’s own BUF Blackshirts, the BUF’s paramilitary wing.
In January 1938, a protest by Dockyard workers in Liverpool was brutally crushed by the BUF and elements of the Regular Army; and violent clashes began across the country; between the Kings troops and those of several other factions. The British Civil War has begun!
Factions: The outbreak of conflict led several groups to attempt to seize the country or their own personal goals. Major factions included:
On the Right (Axis in this scenario
* The Edwardian Army – elements of the professional Army, bound to King Edward VIII.
* The Royal Navy and Royal Marines – bound by tradition and culture to remain loyal to the reigning monarch, and the majority have done so.
* The British Union of Fascists (or “BUF”) – the dominant political party, led by Oswald MOSLEY and heavily backed by German and Italian interests. Mosley has garnered considerable support in his efforts to restore order internally and restore the status of Britain’s Empire
* The Mosley Youth – a “social club” of young men, who have been drilled and armed by unknown sources, and have formed para-military units to push the BUF agenda.
* Foreign Volunteer Units: after the recruiting of numerous foreign elements to fight in the Spanish Civil War, similar detachments have been formed to back those with similar agendas in the British Civil War. Contingents from other fascist and imperialist sympathizers have been formed. Here we will see the presence of the “Hanoverian Legion”, volunteers from Germany, who are backing the Edwardian and BUF efforts
On the Left (Allied in this scenario)
* The Albertine Army – elements of the regular forces, plus most of the “Territorial Army”, backing the young Prince Albert’s claim to the throne.
* The Anglican League - A large army led by a group of bishops and archbishops, they were aligned with the Albertine Army. Many are veterans of the Great War.
* The People’s Party Army - Made up of disillusioned Labour party supporters, disgruntled workers and Spanish Civil War veterans, they are seeking to turn Britain into a Socialist state based upon Lenin's Russia.
* The Farmer’s Union: radical small plot farmers and farm working hands, seeking better pay, price subsidies, and land redistribution. They are heavily influenced by Marxist doctrine.
* The Student’s Union: like students before and after them, the university students have ramparts to thwart whomever they view as authoritarian,
* Foreign Volunteer Units: after the recruiting of numerous foreign elements to fight in the Spanish Civil War, similar detachments have been formed to back those with similar agendas in the British Civil War. Groups of Americans, Canadians, and ANZAC units have been formed; here we will see the Lafayette Battalion, formed of French volunteers, many fresh from the savage fighting in Spain.
This scenario occurs in the West Coast port town of Twaddlemore. Twaddlemore is the home base for a small Royal Navy destroyer flotilla, as well as being a mid-sized port for international commerce. Given that the United Kingdom lives or dies based on this freedom to trade overseas, the port is vital to all in this conflict. The Royal Navy, which for the most part has remained loyal to King Edward VIII, dispatched the flotilla two days ago to join the rest of the fleet, tasked with stemming the flow of foreign volunteers coming to fight for their faction of choice. Many of these foreigners have come directly from fighting for the Nationalists or the Republicans in Spain, who have endured two years of their own brutal Civil War already.
Yesterday the dock workers, who are heavily influenced by communist agents and are affiliated with the People’s Party, refused to move armaments stored in the dock warehouses. Instead, they armed themselves and fighting broke out when security staff sought to control the situation. Who opened fire first is both in dispute and a moot point at this juncture. A company of the Army’s Provost Corps was rushed to Twaddlemore by train, but a bomb was used to derail the trail just outside of town. Multiple factions are either in town currently or rumoured to be headed this way. The Telephone Exchange is the key to communicating with the rest of the country, and is clearly a goal to secure. Likewise, the docks and the armaments stored there in are also of immense value. Lastly, the mysterious new Wireless Tower being built on the south shore is of unknown value, as the work crews are from “away” and appear to be quite Teutonic in manner.
This battle will surely prove that the term “Civil War” is clearly a misnomer.
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A historically fictional 'what if' look at the events leading up to the Deutsche Afrika Korps capture of Tobruk in June 1942.
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France, 1940 - Case Red.
Heavy Tanks of the 4th DCR must smash a hole in the advancing German line - but there are complications.
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Axis and Allied forces clash for a town and large hill.
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This is an Aug 44 meeting engagement between Brit and German mech forces in Belgium. The map is based on a satellite photo of Neubruck just southeast of St. Vith.
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At Dornot, the U.S. Third Army's XX Corps' first attempt to establish a bridgehead on the Moselle River south of Metz met bloody failure. Two and a half miles south of Dornot the XX Corps' 10 Infantry Regiment is trying once more to establish a permanent bridgehead across the Moselle at Arnaville. Since the first U.S. troops crossed at Arnaville on the night of 8/9 September, the Germans have been launching increasingly vicious counterattacks in an effort to destroy the bridgehead and repeat what happened at Dornot.
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Normandy - known for its rolling fields, orchards, stud farms and a good glass of cider. Sheltered from the elements which can pound the coastline this is a landscape is carpeted in apple blossom. It is here, at the heart of one of the best designated cider producing areas that you will find the Chateau les Bruyîres, an Empire period residence and 18th century manor house - run by the Wehrmacht. It is your task to put an end to this inappropriate ownership.
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US Army invades an island defended by Italian Troops.
Map is 1200x1200.
Non-Historical.
20 Battles 10 Turns each.
Play HtH (Preferred), or Allied vs. Axis AI.
Allow AI to setup units, there is no pre-planned setup for the defender yet.
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Two Reinforced Infantry Companies with Armor Support clash in this typical Meeting Engagement.
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engineering company attacks dug in german positions somewhere near monte cassino to capture wine stash for captain hosehead
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CMBB |
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Soviet vs. German Meeting Engagement. 60+ turns.
Best played as: H2H (Not recommended for vs. AI play due to mounted infantry.)
In recent weeks, this industrial center has been the scene of increasingly sharp clashes between recon units and regular forces. Both sides have traded jabs over this important airplane fabrication city. Both have moved into the town and then been forced out again. No one seems to be able to hold it. The landing gear assembly plant on the edge of town was occupied by the Red Army a few days ago and then burned and destroyed as the Wehrmacht forced them out. Much of the town lies untouched, but the workers and residents know it is just a matter of time before a major battle rages through the streets of their city…
After another bloody engagement, both sides have backed off. Again, in the still of a Sunday morning under the cover of a pounding rainstorm, both sides push forces forward to gain possession of the city.
No one is sure where the front lines lie. Is the enemy in front of you? Or is he gone?
Push forward, as so many before you have tried, and hold this town once and for all!
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The Axis launch a major attack on the Allied defenses.
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Russians attack three German-held villages in an attempt to secure the flank of a future offensive.
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Russian breakout from a Kessel against a German blocking force.
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43-02-01, South. SS commandos save Kleist's troops from encirclement. Fictional.
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42-07-10, South. Axis forces in Group A cross the Donits to secure northern flank in the beggining of Fall Blau Operation. Semi-fictional.
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October, 1942
In the northern Caucaus, along the Terek river line, the battle has been raging brutally for nearly two months. Germany's 13.Panzer-Division tasked with taking the key junction city of Vladikavkaz (Ordzhonikidze) has been stymied in it's every attempt to breakthrough.
But now, at the end of October a break has been achieved through the first mountain range and panzers are rolling along the valley near Ardon, on a back route to Vladikavkaz.
The Russians, somewhat disorganized, are withdrawing to new positions. A desperate stand is ordered to slow the German advance and buy time to set-up the new defensive positions.
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a product of HDCS
3rd SS Totenkopf arrives back at the front after its Hiatus from the front in France and is immediately thrown back into action.
Follow the swift Donet's campaign the IInd SS panzer Korps stands poised for the final push too retake Kharkov and restore the pride of the Waffen SS, but they have too cross the Mzha river first.
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Alternative History : Moskow Decision
This the first of a series of fictional scenarios based on the hipotetic decision by Hitler to attack Moskow instead of Kiev during the august 1941.
The german offensive to Moskow is starting, the first task is to take the bridge over the Dnjepr between Smolensk and Viazma.
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Alternative History : Moskow Decision
This the first of a series of fictional scenarios based on the hipotetic decision by Hitler to attack Moskow instead of Kiev during the august 1941.
The german offensive to Moskow is starting, the first task is to take the bridge over the Dnjepr between Smolensk and Viazma.
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CMBO |
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German infantry dawn attack during the Battle of the Bulge. American infantry caught off-guard whilst lining up for chow.
VPs for casualties and German exit points only.
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An American WWII GI's dream come true- a "what if" American assault on Berlin AND a chance to personally bag the ol'Führer himself!
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Newest Maps |
CMAK |
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a fictional Town in North Africa.
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Fictional City in North Africa. Best played as a meeting
engagement.
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Fictional City in North Africa. Best played as a meeting
engagement.
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Version 2, church size and orientation adjusted to be in village center. Minor adjustments such as villages, small hills and ridges around the wheat fields.
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Mixed terrain, woods, open fields, villages, church, river, bridges.
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This is a huge (actually 5 x 4 km) map representing a piece of French countryside west of the town of Arras. It is flat (gentle slopes) and moderately populated with villages, forests, orchards and the like. It is suitable for a massive battle of regiment-sized forces (15,000 points or more).
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Fictional Map, Crete, An almost compleatly dried up river bed with a ruined bridge across, 2 small hamlets on either side
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The axis forces have captured the ridge east of Lieso. It´s been quiet over a month, so they have had enough time to dig deep in the ridge.
Allied forces are attacking with brutal force from east. Tuomari-Laurila has already been taken.
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The axis forces are about to assault a little town called Lieso in aim to capture a road that leads through a ridge to deeper east. The allied forces are dug in somewhere around the old elementary school.
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A small river splits a large map, with lots of roads and 6 bridges to control and a town also to control. This map is for meeting engagements and no side has a terrain advantage. Hopefully this will boil down to your choice of units and your game play.
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CMBB |
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Beautiful and challenging map perfect for direct or flank approach. Fight in the woods, the streets, the buildings or inside a small factory! Great for infantery with some armor and artillerie support and IDEAL for a quick motorized assault in the middle of a foggy night.
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This was a work in progress for the cancelled CM Campaigns. Maps are both operations and battles. Four maps included. One is large version (75% accurate scale) of the entire fortress of Brest Litovsk and immediate area. Others are 2 km x 2 km maps of the north and south portions of the fortress. You are welcome to use these maps as long as your credit "Bannon DC" for map creation.
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1600x1600m, middle eastern front,
3 big victory locations in the middle of the map,
4 additional small flags,
medium settlement with surrounding rural areas,
some hills, woods and farmland,
a small river crossing from N to S,
prepared setup-zones for both sides,
therefor I call it battlefield-map.
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Germans advance easily untill they find... A speed bump on the road to Leningrad
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This Map is designed for Meeting engagements, it is set in a fictional City.
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A medium town lying crosswisely to the advance direction. In and around the town gardens and fields, some bush and tree rows.
2 small rivers with some fords.
Only 1 large victory location.
Best used for meeting engagements.
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Damaged large town/small city divided by a river. Contains several bridges, an old fortress, stadium, factories, railway station, and an old manor. Flags spread pretty evenly out on the map, made for a QB axis attack. IMPORTANT: ONLY FOR USE WITH UMLAUTS STALINGRAD MODS. You most use the scenario with these three mods found at www.cmmods.com:
FULL_telephonepole_umlaut
rubble_spray_umlaut
stalingrad_buildings_umlaut
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Stalingrad-ish map made for Umlaut´s Stalingrad-mods.
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29 2x2km maps. Various terrain; city, village, farmland, deep forests ...
They all quite beatuful ;)
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I know it was UK and not USSR! but i didnt own CMAK when i made the level and i dont want to do everything over again so USSR must equal UK! its a fun level with the FJ troops in the greatest air invasion prior to D-Day.
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CMBO |
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This CMBO map is built from a topographical map of the little town of Seville, NE of Melbourne, Australia. My idea was to lauch a Brit brigade (3 btns) across it at a German static defence screening mobile reserves.
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Desiliens is an ancient Roman town. The map features the ruins of the town, an aquaduct, and the ruins of a villa on a low central hill.
The eastern side of the map is mostly woods, the west is hills and farms. It is most suitable for an assault on the town, but if the focus is shifted to the ruined villa it would be good for a meeting engagement.
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Updated Maps |
CMAK |
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Ideal for a QB ME
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CMBB |
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This Map is designed for Meeting engagements, it is set in a fictional City.
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axis winterattack on a Russian City
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Please feel free to download, use or edit the map.
Screenshots can be found here:
http://worldatwar.eu/index.php?entity_sess=512x00db4fede3b24a34db2c5e9d283f162c&lang=3&location=boardshownode&boardid=51
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A town with a river and lake surrounded by grainfields
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Map is based on a sketch in the book > Die guten Glaubens waren< the history of the SS Polizei Division and shows a hard-fought area south of Leningrad. The Observatory was not reached by the Germans although they really tried it
This is part of a series of maps on the so-called Ladoga
Front
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CMBO |
Newest Members |
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fungf |
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frankf |
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Tony1066 |
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EvanMoore |
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paul maullin |
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| NAME |
MESSAGE |
Experience Levels in CMBB |
MAD RUSSIAN
Senior Tester
Member #468
Joined: Oct 2003
Ratings: 14 / 1 / 0
Discussions: 138
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Post #144
7075 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes, 0 second ago
Experience Levels in CMBB
By
Steve The Mad Russian Overton
Due to the increasing emphasis and interest involving the experience levels and how they apply to the CMBB game system. I have put together a short summary of the experience levels that I apply to my own scenarios.
German Forces:
1941: Infantry and tankers mostly veteran with some regular and crack. These troops had just dismantled Western Europe in a matter of months. They were the most experienced and confident troops in the world at the time.
1942: The heavy losses to infantry reduced the number of troops available. For the most part, those that had survived in the winter battles of 1941, were a hard core of veteran and crack troops. Later in the year as some replacements started to show up there were some green and more regular experience levels seen. German tank crews, not having taken the losses that the infantry had, were still at their 1941 experience levels. Once again, later in the year more regular and green experience levels are seen.
1943: The infantry have about 25% veteran, 65% regular and 15% green experience levels. The fighting was beginning to take its toll on the German forces and some of the more experienced soldiers were being lost. The tank crews have not had the heavy losses of the infantry and a concerted effort was made to build up the Panzer Divisions. Tank crews are about 30% veteran, 50% regular and 15% green.
1944: The German Army was taking heavy losses with no possible way to replace them. Now the experience levels for the infantry are about 25% veteran, 50% regular and 25% green. The Panzer arm is now feeling the shortages of experienced soldiers as well. Tank crews are about 25% veteran, 50% regular, and 25% green.
1945: The German Army is in a state of collapse. The experience levels for the infantry now have fallen to 10% veteran, 40% regular, 25 % green and 25% conscript. Now the Panzer arm is also in severe trouble. The tank crew experience has fallen to 20% veteran, 60% regular and 20% green.
Soviet Forces:
1941: The worst major army in WWII to start hostilities. The Soviets were unprepared in every way imaginable. Soviet experience levels for both infantry and tank crew 5% regular, 30% green and 65& conscript.
1942: The Soviets were learning fast. The problem is that their losses kept their experience from going up much. Infantry and tank crew experience was 20% regular, 65% green and 15% conscript.
1943: The Soviets were finally keeping people alive long enough to learn some of the lessons of war. Infantry experience was now at 10% veteran, 50% regular, 30% green and 10% conscript. Russian tankers were still lagging. It was harder to train new crewmen at the rate that they were being lost. Tank crew experience levels were now at 5% veteran, 40% regular, 40% green and 15% conscript.
1944: This was the year that the Soviets started putting it all together. Infantry experience levels were 25% veteran, 40% regular, 20% green and 10% conscript. The tank crews were now gaining in experience and getting better. Tank crew experience levels were 25% veteran, 50% regular and 25% green. This puts them on a par with German tank crews.
1945: The end of the war found some interesting situations in the Soviet Armed Forces. They had come full circle, from the worst major armed force to one of the toughest. The shear size of the Red Army still provided problems for training for them. Infantry experience levels were 30% veteran, 50 % regular, 15% green and 5% conscript. Tank crews were at their peak in 1945. Tank crew experience was 30% veteran, 60% regular and 10% green.
Eastern Front Summary:
The Germans were the best trained army in the world in 1941 and the Soviets the worst. That gradually changed over the 47 months to become the exact opposite. At the end of the war the Red Army was one of the strongest in the world and the German Army was on the verge of collapse.
There are exceptions to every rule and these are just guidelines. The SS were above average in training for the first 3 years then fell off. The Sturmgeschutz units had handpicked volunteers and very good equipment. The Guards of the Red Army were often equal to their German counterparts. 1944-45 Red Army Reconnaissance troops were the best in the world in any army.
Always keep in mind from 1943 on that the Red Army won the war in the East. There is a tendency to want to make the Germans supermen but this just isnt so. On the other hand without a very hard core of very experienced soldiers the German Army would have fallen apart much earlier than it did. Use common sense and your scenarios will turn out just fine.
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #145
7075 days, 5 hours, 55 minutes, 55 seconds ago
I agree with MR's notes on experience ratings by year, etc, EXCEPT he's basing them on Battlefronts interpretation of what makes a unit Regular or Green or whatever.
But Battlefront is WRONG and i said so in their forum over a year ago,and i still firmly believe it.
No big deal, all designers need do is to adjust the exp levels up by at least one notch! Regard Battlefronts ratings as just a very rough guide or reference points.
With infantry, exp is not so critical and you can get away with having a lot of Reg or even Green and Conscript troops, but if you try it with tanks, you can kiss goodbye to any hope of creating a realistic enjoyable game.
Thats why i totally believe TANKS/SPGs SHOULD BE AT LEAST VETERAN.
(Halftracks can be Reg if you insist because they retreat anyway at the sight of enemy tanks/guns)
Regular or less tanks will slam into reverse much too quickly and the credibility of your game will go up the spout.
Even mixing Reg tanks in with Vets is no good, as the Reg will usually pop smoke and desert his mates in reverse, and that just did not happen historically.
I say again:- MAKE ALL YOUR TANKS/SPG's VETERAN AT LEAST.
I'm open for further debate and discussion on this vitally important topic, as i've seen far too many potentially good scens ruined by having Reg/Green/Conscript tanks/spgs.
http://www.fewgoodmen.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1281
(modified 01/14/2007 14:38:44 by poor old spike)
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MAD RUSSIAN
Senior Tester
Member #468
Joined: Oct 2003
Ratings: 14 / 1 / 0
Discussions: 138
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Post #146
7075 days, 17 minutes, 50 seconds ago
POS, Let's just see what the TacAI does in CM that bothers you so much.
If I understand it correctly you don't like the normal tank crew popping smoke and reversing in a situation that it considers threatening. Your stated opinion has been that anthing less than Veterans and the crews react like girls.
I take that to mean less heroically than you think they should. To defend this position you said that you have talked with both British and German tank crew veterans and they related to you that this never happened.
If I get any of this wrong let me know because I am going on memory here and sometimes it's not too good.
Your first posts on the subject said that no vehicle in CM should be less than veteran but you seem to have changed that to now only include tanks.
While I was researching a scenario I read a couple of passages that shed some light onto this very issue.
"I saw the first houses at 200 to 300 meters distance. Immediately there was a flash form the closest house, and we were hit. In the glow of the fire I shouted, "Reverse!" Very soon after another hit..."
and this...
"Ahead of us was a village, where everything was still quiet. The hatches were closed, and we kept in touch by radio. Only 600 meters to go, but no shot was fired. Our Panzer IV's had deployed in attack formation. As the first Panzers approached the dark outlines of the houses, the fireworks abruptly started. The lead Panzer took a direct hit in the turret. Two or three other Panzers gave off smoke, and another rotated around it's own axis after a hit to the track! Still nothing was to be seen of the enemy. He sat, well covered, behind the houses and fences. Encouraged by the first successes, the Russians increased their fire, and the light Panzers of our lead company were struck. They fired as fast as they could but were unable to accurately spot the Paks and tanks. This could not go on. The Panzer IV's couldn't get through. Over the radio came the order: "Disengage, assemble in the gully." Eight Panzers were lost from just one company..."
These are from the first 11 pages of the book: "Armor Battles of the Waffen SS: 1943-1945" by Will Fey.
They show both a tank given reverse orders after taking anti-tank hits and others popping smoke immediately upon being fired on. These tankers were even the vaunted SS.
I believe this shows that the will to survive is the strongest human emotion. It makes no sense to me that tanks would only ever go forward and that crew experience makes no difference to their response in combat.
But what about the behavior of lower experienced crews in CM. POS your position is that only veteran crew in CM work like they should. In other words they don't show fear. They don't try to get out of the LOS/LOF of the anti-tank gun that has already hit them once and may well kill them the next time. That they are going to sit calmly in place and be killed.
Like I said before, if you override the TacAI's orders to reverse away, normally your AFV will be destroyed by the threat. We all know that electronic soldiers are braver than real ones. The electronic ones can't actually die. So if the electronic soldiers will try to get away from a threat that it believes will destroy it what makes you think real soldiers wouldn't?
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #147
7074 days, 22 hours, 0 minute, 49 seconds ago
MR QUOTE (from book) - "They fired as fast as they could but were unable to accurately spot the Paks and tanks. This could not go on."
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Yes,note they RETURNED FIRE for a while (a full minute? two minutes? three?) saw their mates taking hits, assessed the situation and THEN decided it couldn't go on, and reversed.
But in CM the Regulars DON'T return fire or try to make a brief stand or assess the situation because their only thought is to instantly hit reverse even if their own vehicle hasn't been hit!
A real-life group commander would say "Now remember, we're a big group,so when we begin taking fire DON'T slam into reverse, just stand your ground and we'll blow him away with concentrated fire. Later, if we have to, we'll think about pulling back, but initially STAND YOUR GROUND"
http://www.fewgoodmen.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1281
(modified 01/14/2007 14:40:02 by poor old spike)
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MAD RUSSIAN
Senior Tester
Member #468
Joined: Oct 2003
Ratings: 14 / 1 / 0
Discussions: 138
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Post #148
7074 days, 21 hours, 54 minutes, 32 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike
-----------------------------
Yes,note they RETURNED FIRE for a while (a full minute? two minutes? three?) saw their mates taking hits, assessed the situation and THEN decided it couldn't go on, and reversed.
But in CM the Regulars DON'T return fire or try to make a brief stand or assess the situation because their only thought is to instantly hit reverse even if their own vehicle hasn't been hit!
A real-life group commander would say "Now remember, we're a big group,so when we begin taking fire DON'T slam into reverse, just stand your ground and we'll blow him away with concentrated fire. Later, if we have to, we'll think about pulling back, but initially STAND YOUR GROUND"
Yes, some returned fire. Some also popped smoke immediately. Something you are saying is wrong, IIRC. Also, notice that in the other example they were given the order to reverse with the very first hit on the tank when the AT Gun that fired at them.
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #149
7074 days, 18 hours, 7 minutes, 38 seconds ago
In 27 years of playing WW2 wargames at the Strategic, Operational and Tactical level, plus reading numerous books written by guys at the sharp end, i've never seen or heard of tanks retreating and/or popping smoke without very good cause.
My stance is unshakeable:-Only Veteran or higher tanks in cmbb will perform realistically.
Historically,when a tank formation came under fire by enemy tanks and guns it halted and returned fire.
If it was giving as good as it got,it would usually slug it out to the last tank.
But if it began suffering more losses than it was inflicting, a retreat would be ordered, possibly under the cover of popped smoke.
Individual tanks which had been hit would have understandably retreated prior to this if they were still able.
The whole engagement from opening shots to the destruction of one side or the other, or until one side retreated, would have taken TIME, maybe 1 to 10 minutes, we can't be sure?
But what we CAN be sure of is that neither side would instantly slam into reverse within the first few seconds of the first incoming shot, whether or not it brewed anybody.
But thats what happens with cmbb Regular tanks.
Incidentally, Veterans do retreat too sometimes but usually only if the enemy tank is uber. Thats good.
But Reg/ Green/ Conscript tanks retreat even if the enemy tank or gun is not uber. Thats bad..
The solution is simple:- Ban them from cmbb :)
http://www.fewgoodmen.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1281
(modified 01/14/2007 14:40:43 by poor old spike)
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MRPWASE
Member
Member #1268
Joined: Apr 2004
Ratings: 0 / 0 / 0
Discussions: 1
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Post #150
7074 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes, 56 seconds ago
Excuse me for interfering, but I don't know where you're getting this 'regular tanks being cowards' idea. I had a platoon of regular PanzerIVHs face off against two platoons of T-34 M43s at about 400m, and the Panzers stood their ground until they had knocked out or disabled all 6 T-34s. These were regulars.
And if green and conscript tank crews decide to get the hell outta there, why is that bad? Firstly, it's a representation of troops reacting under fire - just because their commander told them to stand and fight, doesn't mean the will to live won't take over. If all my men were fearless, they'd all be able to charge machineguns and take horrendous casualties and still smile for a picture afterwards.
Regular crews are sensible, yet stalwart most of the time. Green crews are easier to scare, and conscript crews are just scared constantly. They're meant to be like that.
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MAD RUSSIAN
Senior Tester
Member #468
Joined: Oct 2003
Ratings: 14 / 1 / 0
Discussions: 138
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Post #151
7074 days, 12 hours, 42 minutes, 1 second ago
POS, I have been playing wargames since 1972. What is that?? 32 years now. The second game I ever bought was PanzerBlitz. A tactical wargame. I own over 400 board wargames. I've played thousands of times, made more than a thousand scenarios, I've even designed a few of them from scratch. I've played CM hundreds of times. Last year I started HSG.
While both of our credentials are impressive, IMHO, they don't mean anything when it comes to determining, whether or not, CM is modeling experience correclty. All it shows, IMHO, is that we are experienced gamers and not a couple of new guys, that don't have any real idea of how games, or history, relate to one another.
Here is my biggest problem with your stance that the experience levels are out of adjustment.
If all the tankers reacted, the way you say they should, then most of them would have been killed in the first couple of months of the war. To just go forward and never waiver, to be brave in the face of fire, would have had most of them getting killed, and there would have been no need to develop tactics. Why do you need tactics, if all you are going to do is drive straight forward until you either win or are killed?
Because men wanted to live through the engagement.
Some units were like that. The SS come instantly to mind and so do the British tankers during Epsom, Goodwood, June - August 1944...
Take a look at the losses those guys took for just moving straight ahead. Not worrying about the flanks, or the results, just move straight ahead... They did, for a time, until it was too costly. Even the SS couldn't keep it up.
The examples I gave you were SS for that very reason. Even the SS would pop smoke and back up. AT THE START of a firefight. With only a single ATG round fired in the one instance.
To me you made a telling comment...
"With infantry, exp is not so critical and you can get away with having a lot of Reg or even Green and Conscript troops"
So it's okay, if the infantry don't follow orders all the time, and want to live, but, "OH NO, Not my tankers!! They will follow my orders!"
For my money, the game shows the differences in troop experience, pretty well. Could it be better? Maybe. Can I live with it the way it is now? Yes!
As mrpwase points out, the experience levels are supposed to be different. Inexperienced troops don't act the same as experienced troops do. You point that out yourself.
I have an issue with some of the things that CM does and doesn't do as well. Experience level and order completion isn't one of them. Without the experience level differences the game would be much less for me.
Good Hunting. 
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #152
7074 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes, 17 seconds ago
One of the best pre-CM tac games was "Panzer Battles" (i think that was the name) on the Amiga about 15 years ago, and it handled formation cohesiveness much better than CM.
When a tank engagement began in Pz Battles,both sides stood and slugged it out, but as one side or another began to take losses, the morale of that side began to drop until they said "okay thats it, retreat everybody!"
In other words, retreats occurred mostly COLLECTIVELY, formation by formation, NOT individually tank by tank as in CM.
In other words in Pz Battles everybody was affected by what was happening to friends around them,and it gave an excellent sense of unit integrity and cohesiveness.
But in CM indiv units will take it upon themselves to retreat, abandoning their mates in the line. Thats not realistic.
Coincidentally I've just finished the book "Acts of War" by Richard Holmes (Professor of Military Studies at Cranfield Uni) which examines mens minds in battle,and one of his major conclusions is that when it hits the fan, men don't fight for their country or their cause; they fight for their comrades alongside them in the line, living and dying as a unit, not as an individual..
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MAD RUSSIAN
Senior Tester
Member #468
Joined: Oct 2003
Ratings: 14 / 1 / 0
Discussions: 138
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Post #153
7074 days, 5 hours, 59 minutes, 45 seconds ago
POS, The idea that men fight for each other has long been identified. What I think happens in a tank is isolation. How would they know if they were abandoning their mates? Who can see out of a tank? All buttoned up they are alone and isolated.
I believe that increases the chances that they will withdraw. I think that you are applying infantry tactics to armored fights. It is the infantry that fights as a unit. They are all interconnected and supporting. For tanks they are in a steel box, can't see hardly anything, noise levels are high, smoke is filling the fighting compartment, they aren't getting orders or if they are they are hard to interpret.
Have you ever actually been in a tank? They are very restrictive. It takes a very well trained crew to stay the course.
The self same veteran crews that you are talking about. Without that training they go with the survival instinct. They back out of what they don't know or what they think is detrimental to them.
The very reason that smoke was put on AFV's in the first place is to hide them from overpowering threats. In the example I quoted you only 3 out of 8 of them popped smoke. That is about what I see from 8 tanks on the map.
Good stuff.
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #155
7073 days, 5 hours, 1 minute, 12 seconds ago
I'm currently testind a scen H2H against Akula2.
He's had a Panzer IVH sitting in the middle of a road for some time.
I've just had 2x SU-152's reinfs (a crack and a reg) come on, and hunted them into the IVs flank.
They saw him,stopped and fired at short range, both missed.
His turret swung to point at them.
My reg slammed into reverse. The turn then ended without the IV firing a shot.
See, the SU-152 reg crew unrealistically reversed even though their AFV was as good as the IV, and even before he'd fired at them.
Thats just not realistic and it stinks.
Reg crews shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the CM front line..
(postscript:- Next turn my crack SU took out the IV no prob)
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MAD RUSSIAN
Senior Tester
Member #468
Joined: Oct 2003
Ratings: 14 / 1 / 0
Discussions: 138
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Post #156
7070 days, 12 hours, 54 minutes, 57 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike:
I'm currently testind a scen H2H against Akula2.
He's had a Panzer IVH sitting in the middle of a road for some time.
I've just had 2x SU-152's reinfs (a crack and a reg) come on, and hunted them into the IVs flank.
They saw him,stopped and fired at short range, both missed.
His turret swung to point at them.
My reg slammed into reverse. The turn then ended without the IV firing a shot.
See, the SU-152 reg crew unrealistically reversed even though their AFV was as good as the IV, and even before he'd fired at them.
Thats just not realistic and it stinks.
Reg crews shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the CM front line..
(postscript:- Next turn my crack SU took out the IV no prob)
I say that proves my point better than any other example so far.
The regular crew knows that SU can kill them and wants out of there. The elite crew knows that they are as good as the PzIV and killed them.
It's all in the experience level of the crew.
It works for me.
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #158
7064 days, 16 hours, 34 minutes, 17 seconds ago
It's clear that although MR and i agree that individual tanks certainly retreat historically, what we don't agree on is the FREQUENCY at which it occurs in cmbb.
I say it occurs TOO MUCH in the game, but that designers can easily overcome it by making ALL tanks Veterans.
Vets WILL still retreat, but usually only if faced by a superior enemy tank,or if damaged by any enemy tank or gun, and thats exactly as it should be.
A Reg force on the other hand will retreat and go to pieces at the drop of a hat as soon as they see or are shot at by ANY type of tank or gun, and thats clearly unrealistic and stupid.
Designers can of course include Reg tanks if they deliberately WANT to simulate a low-class force.
As i said a few posts ago, my reg SU-152 topped a rise, saw a PzIVlong at close range, fired and missed, then retreated when the Pz's turret swung to point at him even though the Pz hadn't fired!
Thats a classic example of how Regs behave like wimps, and its just not realistic.
Maybe designers should stop relying on Bfronts tank quality ratings and use a more commonsense one. I suggest:-
ELITE=Excellent Rambo class
CRACK=Very good
VETERAN=Good realistic standard quality.
REGULAR=Unreliable as front line units.
GREEN=Useless
CONSCRIPT=Don't even think about them
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JUNK2DRIVE
Master Tester
Member #1102
Joined: Mar 2004
Ratings: 3 / 0 / 0
Discussions: 162
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Post #159
7064 days, 1 hour, 42 minutes, 55 seconds ago
After reading this thread and the latest from POS, I am starting to see his point.
His chart may be a good starting point before playtesting. Then adjust as needed. You can still make it a mix of quality.
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KINGFISH
Member
Member #790
Joined: Jan 2004
Ratings: 0 / 0 / 0
Discussions: 10
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Post #160
7064 days, 1 hour, 15 minutes, 47 seconds ago
Quote:
As i said a few posts ago, my reg SU-152 topped a rise, saw a PzIVlong at close range, fired and missed, then retreated when the Pz's turret swung to point at him even though the Pz hadn't fired!
Thats a classic example of how Regs behave like wimps, and its just not realistic.
Sorry, but totally realistic if you ask me. For one thing, the Su-152s have a very slow ROF. Having just taken a shot, missed, and then seeing the PzIV turning towards them the crew did the correct, and realistic, thing to do - get the hell out of dodge.
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #165
7063 days, 10 hours, 58 minutes, 47 seconds ago
KINGFISH QUOTE:-"Sorry, but totally realistic if you ask me. For one thing, the Su-152s have a very slow ROF. Having just taken a shot, missed, and then seeing the PzIV turning towards them the crew did the correct, and realistic, thing to do - get the hell out of dodge"
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In fact the Reg SU was one of a pair, the other was a Crack.
Before the battle i like to think the Crack said to the Reg:- "I will personally blow your f***g head off if you desert me in battle"
That way the coward would have some incentive to stick around when the shit started flying.
Same with any tank formation of any nation, the commander will say to his men at the briefing "Remember, when we start taking fire, stand your ground and return fire,i'll court-martial for cowardice any crew that runs away prematurely"
Perhaps designers should regard CM quality ratings as "Aggression Ratings" like some operational-level wargames have,where you can assign a level of aggression at each die-roll.
In CM that would equate to:-
ELITE= All-out attack,ignore your casualties completely.
CRACK=Strong attack, largely ignore casualties.
VETERAN=Standard attack,withdraw only if casualties begin mounting.
REGULAR= Withdraw immediately upon taking casualties.
GREEN= Withdraw if enemy says "boo" to you.
CONSCRIPT= They should stay home
(modified 04/23/2005 17:06:18 by poor old spike)
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #166
7063 days, 10 hours, 52 minutes, 11 seconds ago
JUNK2DRIVE QUOTE:- "You can still make it a mix of quality"
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Yeah good idea if done PLATOON-BY-PLATOON, e.g one tank plat of Vets, another of Regs and so on.
That way players can give the tough jobs on the field to the Vets and keep the Regs for softer work.
But its definitely a no-no to mix qual WITHIN tank plats, such as having 2 Vets and 3 Regs in there, as the plats cohesion will disintegrate into a mixed rabble under fire.
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KINGFISH
Member
Member #790
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Ratings: 0 / 0 / 0
Discussions: 10
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Post #170
7063 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes, 39 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike:
KINGFISH QUOTE:-"Sorry, but totally realistic if you ask me. For one thing, the Su-152s have a very slow ROF. Having just taken a shot, missed, and then seeing the PzIV turning towards them the crew did the correct, and realistic, thing to do - get the hell out of dodge"
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In fact the Reg SU was one of a pair, the other was a Crack.
Before the battle i like to think the Elite said to the Reg:- "I will personally blow your f***g head off if you desert me in battle"
That way the coward would have some incentive to stick around when the shit started flying.
Same with any tank formation of any nation, the commander will say to his men at the briefing "Remember, when we start taking fire, stand your ground and return fire,i'll court-martial for cowardice any crew that runs away prematurely"
Backing away from a threat is hardly running from battle, especially when you are nothing more than a sitting duck if you stay in place. The crew acted correctly, and wisely. He took a shot and missed. Now he is defenseless until he loads up another, and as I said earlier the load time for an SU-152 is slooooow. Why sit and die? What exactly is that going to accomplish? Why not back out of LOS, load up another round, then re-enter the fight?
One thing you should consider is that crews of SU-152s were not trained nor equipped to go H2H with German armor. There mission was to support infantry in breakthrough operations, after which the dedicated tank killers (T34/85, SU-100, etc) would pour through the holes in the lines to take on the German armored resesrves.
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #171
7063 days, 2 hours, 26 minutes, 39 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike:
JUNK2DRIVE QUOTE:- "You can still make it a mix of quality"
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Yeah good idea if done PLATOON-BY-PLATOON, e.g one tank plat of Vets, another of Regs and so on.
That way players can give the tough jobs on the field to the Vets and keep the Regs for softer work.
But its definitely a no-no to mix qual WITHIN tank plats, such as having 2 Vets and 3 Regs in there, as the plats cohesion will disintegrate into a mixed rabble under fire.
I have a question for you POS...were you ever in the service?
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #172
7062 days, 3 hours, 29 minutes, 48 seconds ago
MR Quote:-"I have a question for you POS...were you ever in the service?"
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No but thats irrelevant :)
My knowledge of tactics and strategy is better than most real-life commanders, i've criticised the incompetent conduct of Op Iraqi Freedom from day one but thats another story..
Incidentally i've never been a clergyman either but my Bible knowledge is far better than most clergy ;)
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #173
7062 days, 2 hours, 24 minutes, 38 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike:
MR Quote:-"I have a question for you POS...were you ever in the service?"
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No but thats irrelevant :)
My knowledge of tactics and strategy is better than most real-life commanders, i've criticised the incompetent conduct of Op Iraqi Freedom from day one but thats another story..
Incidentally i've never been a clergyman either but my Bible knowledge is far better than most clergy ;)
In one regard that is true, in another, it's not. It's irrelevant that you weren't in the service to make, play, or enjoy the games. It is relevant, I think, to determine the actions of men in situations that you haven't been in yourself.
You are trying very hard to determine what was "normal" behavior in a tank in WWII. You have, from what I can see, done a great deal of research on the subject as well.
Having been in an Armored Division while serving in Germany, I can tell you that you are not alone in how the world views tankers. The average person thinks that tanks are invincible. You should think that, the world's armies spend a lot of time, and effort, trying to get you to believe that. Tankers will generally tell you differently.
That big steel box is often called, a steel coffin, and not without reason.
Think about sitting in your house. Cover all the windows with something that doesn't let light through. Leave a six inch wide by three inch high strip on each one. Make it where you can't get closer than two feet to the window, so you have only a small patch of restricted vision out of your house.
Now, let the neighbor kids come to set your house on fire, while you defend it from inside.
Just you alone to defend it. Your wife is sitting in a chair and can't move but knows that the kids are coming. You can talk to some of your neighbors every so often on the phone. Add smoke, fire, alot of noise, your wife screaming at you to do something and you begin to get the idea.
Now you begin to get the feeling of isolation in a tank.
A better analogy than the pastor would be that, I can tell you how to swim, I can show you how to swim, but until you get in the water, you have no idea what it takes to swim. It's just not the same if you've never done it.
NO commander has all veteran soldiers. At any level. Unless they are highly trained elite units. But just your average everyday Division, Regiment, Battalion, Company, Platoon or Squad, no way. They come in all sizes, shapes, and yes, experience levels. AND they are very mixed inside all of those organizations.
A company normally doesn't have a veteran platoon and all the rest green. Which platoon leader is going to give up his good men to form that veteran platoon? Not to say that, one platoon of the company isn't better than the rest, because more than likely there will be one that is. BUT it isn't intentionally setup that way. It isn't normal for it to be that way. The normal situation is for EVERY organization to have a mix of veteran to green experience levels.
Depending on battlefield losses, some more veteran or green than others. In your depiction, of armor crews only being veteran or better, there is no room for the less experienced. If I understand your position correctly, and I may not, you are agreeing with that. What you are saying, again, if I understand you correctly, is that CM misrepresents the way that the real life experience crews react. That in real life, the experience levels of tank crews would prohibit the kind of actions that you see on the CM battlefield, for the lesser experienced crews.
But that doesn't explain those very actions by conscript Russian tank crews in 1941. Do you agree that they would act like the conscript and green crews that CM protrays?
It also doesn't explain the American tendency, to IMMEDIATELY throw their tanks in reverse, and do ANYTHING to get away from ANY German AFV. Calling them all Tigers! Do you agree that the American tankers were subject to the "Tiger Terror"? And even their regular crews would go into evasive mode when faced with any German armor?
These are well documented situations. Any descent book on the subjects will turn up examples too numerous to mention.
Inside a tank is one of the most isolated feelings that there is. Back in WWII it was both better and worse than now. Back then the radio communication was worse, so the isolation was worse. Today the AT capability of the infantry is much increased, so the fear of a non-armor born weapon killing you will be worse.
POS, tankers are people too. And they want to live. If they can't see the threat they will back away. If they are being hit, and don't know what is happening, or where it's coming from, they will back away. That allows them to live to fight another day.
That is why tactics were designed. To allow for you to maneuver. Your main position in all this, seems to be, that the tanks should just move forward when you order them to. Just move forward...don't be girls.
Why would tactics have ever been invented if it was that simple? That's because it's not that simple. People want to live. Even, in this case, electronic people.
For my money, the experience levels work okay. Are they perfect? No. Am I going to make all my tankers veteran or above. No.
Good Hunting.
MR
(modified 01/04/2005 17:03:05 by Mad Russian)
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #174
7061 days, 16 hours, 29 minutes, 25 seconds ago
MR quote:- "POS, tankers are people too. And they want to live"
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Yes and if all tanks in CM were made veteran it'd mirror reality to a tee.
The bottom line is that all my years of reading true-life accounts of tank engagements, and my conversations and correspondence with ex-Allied and German tankers, and all my experience of wargame playing over the years makes me say without a shadow of a doubt thet veteran should be the standard CM tank quality.
If designers use Regular or less, they can kiss goodbye to a realistic game. (Unless they deliberately want to simulate a crap tank force)
Regarding what goes on in the minds of tank crewmen, i've coincidentally just finished reading mil historian Richard Holmes "Acts of War" in which he analyses that very subject, and one of the major conclusions is that men in the field automatically adopt the mindset of no longer being individuals, but being part of a unit,part of a Borg Collective,and they'd die for one another if they have to,so great is their sense of unit loyalty,(at least normal standard qual troops would)
That makes sense to me. If i was a tank commander i'd stand and slug it out with the enemy until i began taking severe damage, i'd never run out on my mates prematurely,even if i was a FNG with little tank experience.
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #175
7061 days, 12 hours, 56 minutes, 8 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike
Yes and if all tanks in CM were made veteran it'd mirror reality to a tee.
The bottom line is that all my years of reading true-life accounts of tank engagements, and my conversations and correspondence with ex-Allied and German tankers, and all my experience of wargame playing over the years makes me say without a shadow of a doubt thet veteran should be the standard CM tank quality.
If designers use Regular or less, they can kiss goodbye to a realistic game. (Unless they deliberately want to simulate a crap tank force)
Regarding what goes on in the minds of tank crewmen, i've coincidentally just finished reading mil historian Richard Holmes "Acts of War" in which he analyses that very subject, and one of the major conclusions is that men in the field automatically adopt the mindset of no longer being individuals, but being part of a unit,part of a Borg Collective,and they'd die for one another if they have to,so great is their sense of unit loyalty,(at least normal standard qual troops would)
That makes sense to me. If i was a tank commander i'd stand and slug it out with the enemy until i began taking severe damage, i'd never run out on my mates prematurely,even if i was a FNG with little tank experience.
You can't really go with AAR's and books too much on this. How often is a guy going to write up in the AAR that, "we were fired on and immediately backed up..."? Where you find it is in the other guys AAR's.
"When the American force advanced, we fired on them, and killed one tank. The rest retreated."
NOW that I see alot. I mean, I see that statement A LOT. One or two tanks knocked out and the engagement is over. Where does that fit into your formula?
You are taking the loyalty to your comrads a level too high. That loyalty is to your immediate comrads at first. Those in the tank with you. Sure you like Jim Bob in the next tank but you don't eat, sleep and bleed with them. You do that with the men in your own small world. Whether it is an infantry squad, a tank, a gun crew or whatever it is.
There are several good books out on the psychology of war. They all say pretty much the same thing. Having been in the service, never having served in combat, I can tell you that some of those bonds are lifelong. I can only imagine how strong they would be if you were being shot at day after day.
BUT the strong bonds are for a very small group. Not the whole company. Not the whole platoon. Just your small part of it. Not that I wouldn't have done my duty for any of them. Not that I didn't have friends outside my unit that I would have done anything for. But not the entire organization.
It is something like being on a sports team while you were growing up. While the whole school was involved and you had other friends they didn't spend all that time together. They didn't do all the sweating, excersize and mental stress that went with that. It makes for a tighter bond. Not in the same way as a group of guys that are getting shot at I'm sure but similar.
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #177
7061 days, 10 hours, 13 minutes, 15 seconds ago
MR Quote:-"BUT the strong bonds are for a very small group. Not the whole company. Not the whole platoon"
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Yes in an infantry platoon of say 30 men, your prime sense of duty would be to just your 8-man section or fire team, but as there are only 3 tanks per Russki platoon and 4/5 per Jerry platoon it wouldn't be hard to be closely bonded in a tank platoon.
Thats why i suggested in an earlier post that scen designers could make ALL the tanks in a platoon the same quality to simulate "bonding".
At least then when it hits the fan the WHOLE platoon will usually stand together or retreat together as a cohesive bonded unit. The key word is TOGETHER and it looks good and realistic on the field.
But if you mix Vets and Regs in a tank platoon, the cohesiveness and bonding disintegrates when the Regs run away, and it looks bad..
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KINGFISH
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Post #178
7061 days, 2 hours, 35 minutes, 49 seconds ago
But that "bonding" doesn't come automatically. It takes time for new replacements to learn the ways of combat, and in the mean time the war continues. So they get sent to the front, and if they are lucky they survive their first battle. But some don't, and some of the vets don't either, so new replacments come in, and the whole "bonding" process starts over, and in the meantime the war continues some more, and so on.
Take a good look at the replacement rates of some of the infantry divisions in NWE, nevermind the Ostfront. Some units went thru their entire roster several times, and that was only an 11 month campaign. There is no way a unit could effectively keep it's experience level the same with so many new recruits coming in.
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #179
7061 days, 1 hour, 50 minutes, 15 seconds ago
Kingfish Quote:- "There is no way a unit could effectively keep it's experience level the same with so many new recruits coming in"
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Yes, but the experience gap between him and the old hands automatically narrows the instant he joins the platoon, its a psychological thing.
Put yourself in the shoes of a green rookie sent to join a tank platoon consisting of experienced old hands. You feel GOOD and secure and proud being among them and your morale goes up,and with it so does your fighting ability because you don't want to let them down.
So even before the first shot is fired you've jumped up from green rookie class.
And the platoon commander will also have a fatherly word of advice for you:- "Don't panic when the shooting starts, just stick with us and you'll be alright. We fight as a tight team so don't go swanning off on your own or the enemy will have you for breakfast"
The same psychology applies in air dogfighting as its common practice for rookies to be assigned as wingman to the squadron leader who tells him "Stick to me like glue.."
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #180
7060 days, 12 hours, 52 minutes, 27 seconds ago
At this point, I'm going to just "agree to disagree" with you POS.
Neither of us is going to change the other's mind. Time to move onto something more productive.
Interesting conversation though.
Good Hunting.
MR
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KINGFISH
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Post #181
7060 days, 10 hours, 24 minutes, 20 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike:
Kingfish Quote:- "There is no way a unit could effectively keep it's experience level the same with so many new recruits coming in"
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Yes, but the experience gap between him and the old hands automatically narrows the instant he joins the platoon, its a psychological thing.
Put yourself in the shoes of a green rookie sent to join a tank platoon consisting of experienced old hands. You feel GOOD and secure and proud being among them and your morale goes up,and with it so does your fighting ability because you don't want to let them down.
So even before the first shot is fired you've jumped up from green rookie class.
And the platoon commander will also have a fatherly word of advice for you:- "Don't panic when the shooting starts, just stick with us and you'll be alright. We fight as a tight team so don't go swanning off on your own or the enemy will have you for breakfast"
The same psychology applies in air dogfighting as its common practice for rookies to be assigned as wingman to the squadron leader who tells him "Stick to me like glue.."
All well and good but I think you are overemphasizing the effect of joining a vet outfit has on a rookie on a tangible level. I don't disagree with you that there isn't an effect, but that initial 'jump' in confidence is only superficial, and really does not translate into a jump in experience from a CM standpoint.
In CM, the gap between Green to Reg, or any level either way, signifies an actual level of commitment for that unit. They had to make the effort, and survive the effort, in order to jump up a notch. Placing them under the guidance of more experienced leaders does have an effect, yes, but not so much that they can be automatically considered on par with a unit that has already 'seen the smoke'.
After all, you can't consider yourself a musician just because you hang out with the band.
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JUNK2DRIVE
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Post #182
7060 days, 19 minutes, 6 seconds ago
In a platoon of tanks, how much does the HQ units levels affect the other crews?
Should the HQ always be elite?
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #183
7059 days, 12 hours, 43 minutes, 56 seconds ago
Junk2drive Quote:- "In a platoon of tanks, how much does the HQ units levels affect the other crews?
Should the HQ always be elite?"
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Great point :)
I used to routinely make tank plat commanders elite or crack and make the rest of the plat vets when i designed scens.
And of course we can also tweak their personal leadership attributes upward in the editor.
I even used to make infantry commanders a notch or two higher than their men, as nothing looks worse than having a commander whose quality is lower than his men!
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GEN. FAILURE
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Post #276
6952 days, 17 hours, 49 minutes, 1 second ago
Interesting thread!
OK, here we go, head first and no safety net!
Within an infantry platoon, experience levels (EL for short), can vary, and a lot at that if you want to reflect how it was and is at the rough end of the trench.
Example: A veteran platoon of infantry hasn't become veterans wiothout taking losses, and often heavy losses. Those men must, sooner or later, be replaced. Here we have two options as CO.
A)Replace them with veterans from the other squads.
B)replace them with fresh meat.
Option A won't happen as a CO ALLWAYS wantsd to balance the effectiveness of the squads under his command (expetions might be the fact in a crisis or for a designated mission under a short period of time)
Option B is far more likely. First of all since the CO will get his share of replacements from his CO and that he needs the less experienced men to learn and to learn fast from his veterans. (no way to learn like learning on the battlefield.)
This principle is also viable within a company with the different platoons.
We must also remember how a CO uses his squads/platoons. There will allways be one squad/platoon performig better than the others within the unit and on performing "worse" then the rest. This is something the CO knows and will adapt his tactics to in battle. The best unit will be his striking force, used to assault positions or to operate more independently and the worse unit will be kept close to the CO, used to secure taken ground, give firesupport, as runners, ammocarriers and so forth and the "mid-range" EL will be used as maneuvering frove and to give support, suppressing fire, flank guards and so on.
When it comes to playability in CM, some squads/platoons will break faster under fire than others.. So??? That's how it is and one cant count on all units within a unit to perform all the same way. Having 4 T-34, 3 Vet and on Reg. can mean it's a new tank crew or just that the loader or driver in that tank was killed last week and replaced by a newbie who isn't used to combat or simply working hard to learn the rutines /order terminology of his new tank commander, this will show in how that tank performs.
To this we must also add the fact that all men are not equally good soldiers. (They do say god created man but Mr Colt made them equal, but that's not true! ). A good squad leader or platoon leader with high EL will be affected by his troops if they have a lower EL and low EL troops will be motivated by a leader with high EL but this does not happen over night and the difference in EL and the actions taken ackordingly might show first in battle.
There is also the possibility od the CO havin lower EL thatn the troops he is commanding. This however is rarely seen above Bat. level where some newbie from West Point, Sandhurst or such is given command due to rank and nothing else.
Can a CO have lower EL than the troops he is commanding but with boxed (i.e.) 2's for stealth, command, combat and/or moral? In my opinion yes.
To sum up this essay: Different EL's within a platoon is, IMHO, no problem, realistic and not a problem while playing.
if you have a platoon with high EL but for one squad, well then you just suck it up and play.
//Gen
PS.
One way of reflecting platoons having taken losses is to delete one or two squads and/or inherent supporting squads, (bazooka, MG, mortar etc...).
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GEORGE MC
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Post #277
6952 days, 13 hours, 30 minutes, 58 seconds ago
Intriguing discussion and got me to thinking what makes a unit effective in combat, but more particularly what makes an armoured/tank unit effective. I did a bit of a trawl through. One quote from Armour Battles of the Waffen SS page 2 (I assume its Will Fey writing) makes a pertinent observation It was during those fateful days of January 1943 when we found each other. Only a few hours before we knew nothing about each other. Then we were a panzer crew, a fighting unit, depending on each other for life and death. Five men, more like five boys, but almost all marked with the scars of war
He continues after they had just taken possession of a brand new Tiger We slept, ate, and laughed in our Panzer. We trembled and were anxious about it. We cursed it if the engine quit sometimes, but we praised and stroked it when we had another success. We had become a unit, we five men and our Tiger.
In Firing Line by Richard Holmes pg 326 there is a section specifically regarding AFV crews. Quote The crews of armoured fighting vehicles are, of necessity, in a degree of isolation. I have encountered only one instance of outright combat refusal by an AFV crewman, a driver who declined to advance until pressed to do so by his commanders pistol
Further on he continues to give an example where a tank of the 8th Armoured Brigade waited at a roadblock in Normandy. This tank sat and watched several German vehicles move along a straight road in easy range of its gun. The tank did not fire on the vehicles nor did it call for support from its nearby troop. When asked to take the enemy under fire the commander refused saying If I do he will reply to my fire.
So what makes a unit cohesive? The basic unit in an AFV is the individual vehicle and crew. These basic units are organised into a platoon under control of the platoon CO (who also has his own vehicle to control, target the enemy etc). Once these men are shutdown in their steel boxes their only contact is with each other, whilst the commander may have radio contact with his platoon CO. Any bond with their friends in other tanks will be tenuous at best. When the firing starts I can well imagine the radio chatter that will then ensue.
It then falls to the platoon CO to ensure his unit operates as a cohesive entity by issuing orders. But ultimately each tank operates to the dictates of its crew, as we have already seen that is the main unit of loyalty. The platoon CO may have said earlier Tank 112 you move over that crest to your 2OClock, whilst I cover you. If the driver doesnt like what he sees he may reverse back before the tank CO can say What the ****! Stop! Forward!
Training and combat can develop a sense of unit cohesion and esprit de corps but by the very nature of the goings on inside a tank being private, whereas with infantry its public; there is a lot of scope for less than aggressive and soldierly conduct.
So implications for CMBB? Me I like units reflecting this experience, and I can cope with mixed platoons (in scenario design if I want AFV units to function well I give the HQ unit the appropriate bonuses) in action. I dont want drilled Borg automatons that all function as one. I like the unpredictability of my pixel AFV crews, albeit a tad frustrating at times, but then Im sure the real McCoy was just like that.
Good discussion guys. 
Cheers fur noo
George Mc
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It's better to burn out than to fade away!
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #278
6951 days, 37 minutes, 12 seconds ago
"Look at Jackson and his Brigade standing like a stone wall" said General Bee at 1st Bull Run.
And German Gen. Bittrich said of the Brit paras at Arnhem - "I've never seen men fight so hard".
In CM terms, that'd mean all Jacksons men and all the paras would be "Elite" level, with no lower quals mixed in or else realism would go up the spout.
The same applies to ordinary standard troops, they should all be veteran. Mix low-quals in and you don't get men standing like stone walls, you get a disintegrating mob whether its attacking or defending
Where's the fun and realism in that?
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PZAUFKLARUNG
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Post #279
6947 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, 41 seconds ago
Sorry guys - I have to weigh in. POS, the exception proves the rule - Red Devils at Arnhem and Jackson's Virginians at Manassas are the stuff of legends and do not adequately illustrate the cold reality that great leaders do not control a situation they influence an outcome. Leaders constantly balance the strengths and weaknesses of the led. Within every elite formation, leaders from team to corps levels must constantly make trade-offs and compromises - they must adjust priorities because they NEVER find themselves with the ideal resources to accomplish their mission. In combat, leadership - skill - experience - morale/esprit are all dynamic variables in constant flux because of casualties, mechanical breakdowns, fatigue, logistics problems and yes varying levels of skill/experience.
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Scouts Out!
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #280
6947 days, 23 minutes, 45 seconds ago
Yes, we certainly don't want games where every unit performs the same like robots or it'd be very boring and predictable.
But on the other hand we don't want games where units are a useless mixed rabble or the game becomes a mickey-mouse travesty of realism.
A compromise is needed.
Sadly, most designers err too much towards the mixed rabble doctrine.
I've tested about a dozen TPG scens which were unfortunately like that, and i just couldn't do a thing with my men, they ran at the drop of a hat, totally unrealistic..
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CORVID
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Post #289
6929 days, 22 hours, 59 minutes, 9 seconds ago
Did they run away?,,, Or did they fall back to a better position?...
I have seen in game,, reg and green tanks fall back to better positions to fight from, seen conscript tanks stand and fight , and seen vetran tanks panic,
It's kinda like the real thing,, As far as i am understanding from my own readings,, it was the green and inexperienced crews that tended to blunder forward after making contact with the enemy, while the experienced crews tended to imediately fall back to the last good cover they passed, i like to use regs as my main armor (50%)with a mix of green (25%)and vet (25%)to ballance it out,
I think the tac ai acts quite naturaly, Good tank crews will usualy seek cover upon contact, Stand up slugging matches were the exception, not the rule,
I also agree that for a tank crew, it was the crew itself that was the unit, and to whom ones loyalty was aimed, other tanks in the platoon were incidental, but ones own crew were the comrades you protected, so a driver will throw into reverse to save his mates, he will fall back to the last good cover he saw, and he will do it out of loyalty to his crew, this is what allowed a crew to survive to become experienced, and what kept a crew alive to win battles,,
You dont win by ploughing forward to certain death, you win by being smart,
i think i could beat POS, i realy do,, and i wouldnt use his style of tactics,
I treat my units like real people, and i expect them to respond to combat like real people, (ie, by trying to stay alive)
I dont think POS would be a very popular battalion leader, And troops dont go the extra distance for leaders they dont like,
Thats just my oppinion
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PZAUFKLARUNG
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Post #318
6901 days, 49 minutes, 15 seconds ago
OK Guys. I posted a scenario to test everybody's theories on the subject with a trial by ordeal. Scenario (CMBB Special Edition 1.03) is "Blood Sweat and Steel" and stars everybody who contributed to this string as Axis TCs - just germanized everyone's moniker a little.
Some initial problems with the first upload should be fixed now. I originally uploaded a Tournament Save Copy which denied everybody the opportunity to view the good stuff, but worse seems to knock out any chance to play the AI. I modified by uploading the editable game file. Let me know if you're having problems still - and any solutions you can offer to correct.
If I get enough f/b I'll "Russicize" you all and put you in the turret of a JS-II
PzAufkl
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DDOGG
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Post #330
6890 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes, 58 seconds ago
Gentlemen,
After scanning through some of the notes here. I do have to say that in every game there must be some liberties taken to allow for a smoother game play. In my experience in reality, once you get shot at 95% of people are veterans. I leave a 5% leeway because some people are dumbasses and never learn.
You all have to remember something, there is no such thing as behaving normally. Sleep deprevation, food and water rationing, combat, forced marches, running, and many other things will make people react differently at different times. Veterans, elite, and green alike.
There will never be a time during combat reserves being placed in a unit that they leave a hole squad green, never, never. They would always feather them out through the hole company, platoon.
My thinking is that Battlefront has made the titles green-elite to elicite a form of personality as well as combat ability. I have seen elite personel after hours of combat or who have seen certain things in combat not be able to take it anymore and react just the same as a green might react after the first time in combat.
What I have seen here is the assumption that Vet crews or men, or elite crews or men will act a certain way because they are that, but when men have had enough, no matter what they are listed as, they have had enough.
What you have to think as far as experience levels are the factors that would make up the level. Training, weapons, combat experience, personality,unit cohesion, temperment, intestinal fortitude and many others. So if we take all those factors into consideration, if you had someone who was highly trained in weapons, one of the best, highly motivated, confident, strong, but had no combat experience, what would his level be? Green? Elite? Some where in between? A game has to determine that for the sake of gameplay but in real life, what would an Marine Corps Force Recon team, or a Navy Seal Team be considered. Well trained, unit cohesion high, best weapons, highly motivated, but would they be elite without combat experience during combat? I would think so and are considered so, even without combat experience, because of the level of training. So basically in a modern game a Seal Team would be considered Elite, but green in combat experience, see what I'm getting at. What I'm trying to say is gameplay is gameplay, real life is something else, enjoy the game.
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"Put us down in Holland, or put us down in Hell, but put us down all in one place or I will hound you to your graves!"
82nd Airborne Lt. Col Louis Mendez addressing the Air Crews at a briefing, September 1943
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GEORGE MC
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Post #331
6889 days, 17 hours, 11 minutes, 20 seconds ago
Ive found this subject to be fascinating. Here is a snippet of info, which outlines the rise and fall of the effectiveness of a combat soldier. Its taken from pg 329 of The Face of Battle by John Keegan
As the authors of the American official report Combat Exhaustion explain: There is no such thing as getting used to combat Each moment of combat imposes a strain so great that men will break down in direct relation to the intensity and duration of their exposurepsychiatric casualties are as inevitable as gunshot and shrapnel wounds in warfareMost men were ineffective after 180 days or even 140 days. The general consensus was that a man reached his peak of effectiveness in the first 90 days of combat, that after that his efficiency began to fall off, and that he became steadily less valuable thereafter until he was completely uselessThe number of men on duty after 200 to 240 days of combat was small and their value to their units negligible.
Cheers fur noo
George
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It's better to burn out than to fade away!
Get your Eastern Front fix at www.blowtorchscenarios.com
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #332
6888 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes, 49 seconds ago
Yes the subject is deep, for example only earlier this year i read the book "Acts of War, the behaviour of men in battle" by Richard Holmes, professor of military studies at the UK Defence Academy and Cranfield University, and i've read a zillion other books of battle accounts etc over the last 40 years, and one of the things that comes out of it all is exactly what DDOGG says, namely that - "There will never be a time during combat reserves being placed in a unit that they leave a hole squad green, never, never. They would always feather them out through the hole company, platoon"
That's why i've been saying to scen designers never to mix individual low-quality squads or tanks within a platoon unless you deliberately want to simulate an unrealistic rabble that quickly disintegrates and loses cohesion in battle.
Instead, make every unit in the platoon the same qual so you get the realistic "band of brothers" effect, and make them all at least Regular, or preferably Veteran.
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #333
6888 days, 1 hour, 50 minutes, 15 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: poor old spike:
Yes the subject is deep, for example only earlier this year i read the book "Acts of War, the behaviour of men in battle" by Richard Holmes, professor of military studies at the UK Defence Academy and Cranfield University, and i've read a zillion other books of battle accounts etc over the last 40 years, and one of the things that comes out of it all is exactly what DDOGG says, namely that - "There will never be a time during combat reserves being placed in a unit that they leave a hole squad green, never, never. They would always feather them out through the hole company, platoon"
That's why i've been saying to scen designers never to mix individual low-quality squads or tanks within a platoon unless you deliberately want to simulate an unrealistic rabble that quickly disintegrates and loses cohesion in battle.
Instead, make every unit in the platoon the same qual so you get the realistic "band of brothers" effect, and make them all at least Regular, or preferably Veteran.
POS, you need to read what Ddogg wrote there. It is not that green troops were never commited to combat. It was that they would be parceled out among the more experienced.
We all agree to that. You have a company of over a 100 men and 12 of them come back. When you fill the ranks back up do you think that 12% of the veterans make every squad the same? Not where I come from.
It also doesn't cover the first time in combat when nobody is a veteran.
You seemed to have skipped the parts that didn't fit so well with your position...
You all have to remember something, there is no such thing as behaving normally. Sleep deprevation, food and water rationing, combat, forced marches, running, and many other things will make people react differently at different times. Veterans, elite, and green alike.
How does your position that everybody should behave like men fit in with elites acting like green?
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #334
6887 days, 13 hours, 23 minutes, 21 seconds ago
We can all come up with quote and counter-quote from books, but the bottom line is this - The yardstick i use is to compare what happens in a game to what happens in real life, based on all the many books and battle accounts i've read over the years, and the plain fact is that if CM designers mix troop and tank qualities within the same platoon, the game will be crap and a pain in the ass to play.
That's why i announced in the main forum a while back that i no longer bother to playtest such scens, because i know they'll play unrealistically and bear no resemblance to reality, and i'm simply not going to waste my time on them.
Incidentally if DDOGG's wondering who i am, i'm a 50+ years old cmbb triple-ladder leader with over 300 ladder games experience under my belt, averaging a loss ratio of about 1 game in 4..
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #335
6886 days, 23 hours, 24 minutes, 47 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: poor old spike:
the plain fact is that if CM designers mix troop and tank qualities within the same platoon, the game will be crap and a pain in the ass to play.
All according to POS. I see way more opinions by guys that have read and done as much research as you have who disagree with your point of view and very few who support it.
The vast majority of game designers are using mixed experience levels to add realistic game play to their scenarios so your stance of not playing those is going to give you less scenarios to choose from.
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #336
6886 days, 14 hours, 51 minutes, 5 seconds ago
In fact there's no need to mix qualities in platoons at all because the CM game system has a nice built-in random factor that affects everything in the game.
Therefore if every squad or individual tank is veteran, they'll all perform differently from one another anyway! Some will stand their ground longer, some will break earlier, etc.
That's exactly how it should be.
But if designers start mixing qualities within a platoon, this performance difference becomes so pronounced as to make the game wildly unrealistic.
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BRENT POLLOCK
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Post #337
6886 days, 4 hours, 18 minutes, 47 seconds ago
[note to self: see if I am recollecting things accurately in that it seems the QB engine randomly toggles experience levels up and down around the purchased level. In other words, if you buy everything as Regular, you get some switched to Vet and others at Green, with very rare double jumps.]
June 30, 2005 - checked it and this is so. The QB engine randomly varies experience level and does not give you homogeneous units.
(modified 06/30/2005 06:08:38 by Brent Pollock)
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #338
6885 days, 23 hours, 25 minutes, 31 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike:
In fact there's no need to mix qualities in platoons at all because the CM game system has a nice built-in random factor that affects everything in the game.
Therefore if every squad or individual tank is veteran, they'll all perform differently from one another anyway! Some will stand their ground longer, some will break earlier, etc.
That's exactly how it should be.
But if designers start mixing qualities within a platoon, this performance difference becomes so pronounced as to make the game wildly unrealistic.
I dare say POS...if the game is so bad why do you play?
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #339
6885 days, 15 hours, 6 minutes, 35 seconds ago
I wouldn't say CM is bad, its certainly the best tactical computer wargame i've ever seen since i began playing them 20 years ago,despite some design flaws and omissions that could do with tidying up (convoy movement, ammo resupply,new arty HE/smoke routine,smoke grenades,faster tank pivoting,gentler tank stopping at end of movement,inviolable button/unbutton order etc.)
At least BFront say they're re-writing the CM engine, so that's worth waiting for.
Re designing, i'm here in TPG to help designers turn out great scens, they can choose to listen to me or get left behind ;)
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #341
6884 days, 23 hours, 20 minutes, 15 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: poor old spike:
Re designing, i'm here in TPG to help designers turn out great scens, they can choose to listen to me or get left behind ;)
ROFL!!!!! 
Glad you cleared that up for me!! 
I'm trying desperately not to be left behind but when you use inexperienced troops in your scenarios the POS won't even play them...  
Hard not to be left behind then...   
Good Hunting.
MR
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DDOGG
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Post #342
6884 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes, 8 seconds ago
MR and others,
As I contemplate all that is being said here, I find myself in the middle of this discussion. My first reaction was to be against POS, but I think I know what he's trying to say, but POS I think your not saying it in the right way.
Basically, what he's saying is if you create a totally green platoon or squad that in reality none really ever existed, because like I said the military tries not to do that, so they mix Veteran, green, personel together. So he's saying IMHO that if you have several totally green platoons in a game that it will not react like they're suppose to.
With that I also have to say at one time or another POS there are totally green platoons, squads, teams, etc. if there hasn't been combat for long periods of time. My first time in combat I was with a totally green(as far as combat experience goes) team. None of us had ever seen combat, but our training made up for it. Although not everone goes through the training I had. So I do have to say, if you look at Band of Brothers, that whole platoon was green, none had seen combat before, although their training made up for it. They were also considered an elite unit though and I would have to say that not all front line troops had the training that they had, so with that being said, there have to be totally green units sometimes. They would usually not swap men around in company only in a platoon. If a platoon had many casualties lets say, all the new guys then would go to that platoon. So if you made a green platoon with one or two Veterans, than it would mimic reality in some situations. Look at Saving Private Ryan. In that situation they were all green but the Sergent and maybe one other, that does not make it a Veteran platoon. I'm going visting now, so in my last line I have to say, POS, take it easy man, take a deap breath, you sound angry, it's just a game, The truth be told, there's only so much reality I could take in a combat game. Have a nice day all.
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"Put us down in Holland, or put us down in Hell, but put us down all in one place or I will hound you to your graves!"
82nd Airborne Lt. Col Louis Mendez addressing the Air Crews at a briefing, September 1943
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #343
6884 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes, 48 seconds ago
If I understand POS correctly his issue with the experience levels is that in CM if the experience level is below veteran then the electronic troops don't act like men.
They reverse away from danger or go to ground or all the stuff that inexperienced troops are prone to. In POS's world of reading and talking with vet's that just doesn't happen in combat.
In the books I read and the vets I served with it happened if you wanted to stay alive. That the bottom line objective was to stay alive. If that meant reversing the tank out of harms way that is what it meant. If it means that an infantry squad refuses to move into the open in the LOS of that HMG that is what it meant.
POS wants all troops veteran or above so that they will stand and fight toe to toe with the enemy and be men about it.
Then he doesn't have to worry about things like rallying his troops, having to use good tactics and irritating things like that.
If the scenario designers will only use veteran experience level troops then he can just charge on with his troopers that are good soldiers and always do what they are told.
Not so in the real world. Not so in my scenarios either.
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #344
6883 days, 8 hours, 26 minutes, 30 seconds ago
DDOGG quote - POS, take it easy man, take a deap breath, you sound angry, it's just a game
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Why should i be angry if somebody doesn't want to listen to the advice of a triple-ladder leader who's fought over 300 battles in the savage ladder jungles nonstop over the past 3 years, it's their loss not mine ;)
Anyway I strut my stuff on many CM websites and only pop into TPG now and again on my rounds even though i'm not a scen designer,so this site is only a small corner of my CM activities anyway.
(And i understand DDogg is a buddy of MR which is why he's jumping on MR's side) ;)
To clarify what i've already said in an earlier post somewhere -
Imagine a CM game where you've got say 9 infantry platoons, 3 are vet, 3 are reg and 3 are green.
FABULOUS! I'd play it gladly because i could then use my vet platoons in a tough sector, my regs in a softer sector, and my green pussies guarding the mobile kitchen in the rear.
The FUN in such a setup is deciding which sector to allocate each platoon.
Now imagine the same game but in which each platoon consists of say 1 vet squad, 1 reg squad and 1 green squad.
It stinks, and i won't touch it with a bargepole because i know the greens will run away and cower, followed by the regs later, leaving the vets to stand their ground and take the shit alone,and the whole game becomes a mickey-mouse shambles, totally unrealistic.
The moral? If you're goin to mix qualities, that's fine, but make the WHOLE PLATOON the same quality because it adds to the fun of deciding what duties to give each platoon depending on its quality, and it also adds to the realism.
HEY for two pins i'd design a few scens of my own to show you hardheads how it should be done ;)
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KINGFISH
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Post #348
6878 days, 6 hours, 25 minutes, 39 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: Poor Old Spike:
DDOGG quote - POS, take it easy man, take a deap breath, you sound angry, it's just a game
--------------------------
Why should i be angry if somebody doesn't want to listen to the advice of a triple-ladder leader who's fought over 300 battles in the savage ladder jungles nonstop over the past 3 years, it's their loss not mine ;)
Anyway I strut my stuff on many CM websites and only pop into TPG now and again on my rounds even though i'm not a scen designer,so this site is only a small corner of my CM activities anyway.
(And i understand DDogg is a buddy of MR which is why he's jumping on MR's side) ;)
To clarify what i've already said in an earlier post somewhere -
Imagine a CM game where you've got say 9 infantry platoons, 3 are vet, 3 are reg and 3 are green.
FABULOUS! I'd play it gladly because i could then use my vet platoons in a tough sector, my regs in a softer sector, and my green pussies guarding the mobile kitchen in the rear.
The FUN in such a setup is deciding which sector to allocate each platoon.
Now imagine the same game but in which each platoon consists of say 1 vet squad, 1 reg squad and 1 green squad.
It stinks, and i won't touch it with a bargepole because i know the greens will run away and cower, followed by the regs later, leaving the vets to stand their ground and take the shit alone,and the whole game becomes a mickey-mouse shambles, totally unrealistic.
It doesn't make it unrealistic, since such variations in experience levels were very common during the war. What it does do is create the same challenge as the Vet/reg/green 9 platoon force, only now the scale is brought down to the squad level.
Now you can delegate the responsibilities of the individual squads based on their EPs. For instance, in a platoon-sized assault you can have the greens provide cover fire and watch flanks, regs to maneuver on the enemy's flank, and vets to assault, backed by the fire from the other two.
Quote:
The moral? If you're goin to mix qualities, that's fine, but make the WHOLE PLATOON the same quality because it adds to the fun of deciding what duties to give each platoon depending on its quality, and it also adds to the realism.
I fail to see how the term 'Realism" can be used in a scenario where the EPs are manipulated to achieve an artificial standard. Fun, maybe. Realistic, hardly.
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #450
6325 days, 14 hours, 19 minutes, 7 seconds ago
"I decided to ignore my orders and to take command at the front with my own hands as soon as possible" -Rommel arrives in Africa 1941
This is the signature line POS uses.
He revels in those that disobey orders and yet get the job done. The "rebel with a cause" mentality.
POS is a ladder player and as such has his games count for points. He doesn't play for historical accuracy.
The reason I point this out is it makes a difference on how you view the experience issue.
By the way, POS would have fired Rommel. All his little electronic guys follow orders or back into the editor you go. So, sorry Rommel, there's no place for you in POS's army!
That's why POS wants all his electronic tank crews to be veteran or above. They follow orders. They never show fear. No, not tankers, that's for the wimpy infantry!!
If you make all your tankers veteran or above then we have what Hitler wanted a race of supermen. They always follow orders, are never concerned with living and therefore reverse their tank back out of harms way to live another day...why should they?? POS wants them to either do their mission or die.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't know that the game has tankers react this way. I'm just saying that it's highly unrealistic to think all tankers act that way.
You think a Sherman driver didn't throw it in reverse when they met a Tiger? Not according to the Veteran only view that POS takes. No! They died like heroes good American Men that they were!
You think a PzII/III/IV crew didn't throw it into reverse when coming across a T-34/KV-1? Oh no!!! Not Good German tank crews!! They died like men!
Of course they pulled back. They wanted to live as much as you or I do.
If you want your scenarios to be historically accurate you need to think that tankers are people too and want to live as much as the next guy! Of course if you're making scenarios for fun..it's fun to only play with Veteran and above tankers...they aslways do what they're told....unlike Rommel....
Good Hunting.
MR
(modified 01/11/2007 05:01:47 by Mad Russian)
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #468
6314 days, 1 hour, 25 minutes, 39 seconds ago
I play for three things only - FUN FUN FUN!
And if I have a load of green or regular tank crews I know that the fun flies straight out the window and i'll be forced to spend the rest of the game trying to get a bunch of girl guides to fight like real men.. ;)
Where's the fun or historic realism in that?
PS - I'm very fair though, I tell my opponents before the start - "I'm going to buy veteran tanks, not crack or elite.
You can buy whatever you like" ;)
(modified 01/22/2007 17:57:27 by poor old spike)
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DWAS
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Post #478
6311 days, 3 hours, 53 minutes, 20 seconds ago
I don't know if I'm contributing to this discussion or not, but I've scrutinized a scenario for some time now. It's a scenario with quite a number of tanks (Shermans, Fireflies, Tigers and Panthers) in "close quarter battle". It's a map with a lot of "scattered trees" and "woods" so the fighting is mostly below 100 meters in range. The German tank forces are green and regulars. The Allied crews are better.
One observation I've made is that the German tanks often throw into reverse when opposed with enemy tanks in front of them, then backing into vulnerable positions of which they know nothing. They do not fire at the observed enemy. Below 100 meters most of these tanks can kill any other tank from any angle (right?) so backing into unknown territory would be a stupid thing to do, since it usually doesn't increase distance to the (observed) enemy significantly, and possibly just give an unobserved enemy a good flank or rear shot oppurtunity.
What's your opinion on this? Should the reverse-don't-shoot action be seen as a primitive response to an immidetate threat? If so, how wise would it be, under the circumstances, to just reverse into the unknown in order to avoid what? They rarly reach cover and if they do, they reveal them selfes to someone else at the same time as they lost their support from others reversing in panic.
If I conduct an Axis attack trying not to use information about the Allied forces that I know about (I've played both sides several times) i usually stand a minor defeat. Using knowledge about the Allied I can get a draw, but then I need some luck - do my tank kill with the first shot or not? Who survives a simultaneous face-to-face shooting?
In short, the response of the German tank crews are actually killing them - instead of honestly trying to kill the opponent they back out and take one or more (inevetable) hits from seen and unseen units.
After reading this topic I will now "up" the Germans a notch and see what that means for the scenario in question.
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Just picked up an interest in theese fine games again after years of inactivity. Just finally beginning to understand how to "play" them :) Thanks for YOUR help in this matter.
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DWAS
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Post #481
6309 days, 6 hours, 34 minutes, 25 seconds ago
Ok, I "upped" the german crews but it didn't change much - and when I think about it it sort of makes sense in a way.
Sure I'll get better control of the tanks but they still loose. This is probably more proof of my inferior tactics than anything else.
The germans are forced to move and the allied defend. The allied seems to get the first shot, and at the ranges used here german "armour superiority" menas nothing. Any tank can kill any other tank at theese ranges, so the attacking forces gets the "short stick" - and this is far as I understand more or less correct. I can live with it.
One problem though is that the AI seems to know just a little bit too much. When he moves his armour he moves just beyond visibilty of my armour, even when he does fairly aggressive movements. It's hard for me to plot paths that are so accurately out of LOS until the final favorable position is reached. Many tanks are lost from a side or rear shot during movement, and since there is no "covered arc"-command in CMBO there isn't much I can do about it right now. My CMBO-tactics clearly sux. On the other hand, few AI-controlled tanks offer theese kinds of shots. They avoid the coverd arc of german tanks and fails only when I move several tanks at the same time in unexpected ways. I loose more tanks during movement than the AI-defender does. Hmm...
Now I'll try to "down" the allied crew one notch (keeping the original axis level) and see what happens. Do they pop smoke and reverse at the mere sight of a Panther? Does this screw up their almost God-like situational awarness?
More to come.
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Just picked up an interest in theese fine games again after years of inactivity. Just finally beginning to understand how to "play" them :) Thanks for YOUR help in this matter.
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DWAS
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Post #482
6309 days, 3 hours, 51 minutes, 50 seconds ago
Done that as well. It was game over in 20 turns out of 25. Axis major victory.
By lowering the Exp. Level of the defending tanks I got them to retreat much more villingly => leaving their infantry vulnerable => leaving ground for my infantry => giving more clues of enemy tanks => easier kills.
The germans had 9 vehicles knocked out while the allied lost 26. Only 9 men were OK on the Allied side.
Don't know how to judge this. It seems as if Exp Level doesn't make much difference for the attacker if the defender is really good. The attacker has all sort of disadvantages going against him and things f*ck up in diffrent ways. Either they reverse into certain death, or they stand their ground beeing killed.
For the defender, a stiff and confident behavior is crucial. Lowering his "morale" makes him incompetent.
So I don't know if there should be a "rule" about Exp. Levels for tank crews as suggested. It's more about the relation of the opposing sides crews that matter game-wise and their role (attacker-defender).
Note again: here the tanks were about equal in kill capability because of the ranges. If the germans could use distance to their advantage perhaps things would have come out differently.
Did all of this make any sence? If not, my apologies.
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Just picked up an interest in theese fine games again after years of inactivity. Just finally beginning to understand how to "play" them :) Thanks for YOUR help in this matter.
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POOR OLD SPIKE
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Post #483
6306 days, 19 hours, 20 minutes, 9 seconds ago
DWAS QUOTE - The German tank forces are green and regulars. The Allied crews are better.
One observation I've made is that the German tanks often throw into reverse when opposed with enemy tanks in front of them, then backing into vulnerable positions of which they know nothing....
Did all of this make any sence? If not, my apologies.
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Mate, by observing the fact that useless greens and regulars stink, you make more sense than a lot of people I could mention who think greens and regs rock!
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DWAS
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Post #484
6306 days, 13 hours, 54 minutes, 52 seconds ago
Well, on the other hand - raising their level "one noth" didn't change much. They still got shot to pieces. Without reversing or popping smoke. Don't know if this is better, it might "play" better, but it didn't make much change. The outcome was still the same.
I saw a documentary about Omaha beach a while a go. It was stated there that the americans delibirately choose inexperienced soldiers, young and not battle proven, for the initial waves. The rationale was that they wouldn't get the experienced or older ones of the boats - they would now what avaited. The young guns did not, so they were excpected at least to try. Cynical? Don't know if its true, but so they said.
I think that experience level is more important to the defender than to the attacker. You can attack with green units, you just have to treat them as such, but it's hard to defend with them. I think the tests I've made indicates this.
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Just picked up an interest in theese fine games again after years of inactivity. Just finally beginning to understand how to "play" them :) Thanks for YOUR help in this matter.
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MAD RUSSIAN
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Post #485
6306 days, 13 hours, 29 minutes, 26 seconds ago
The simple truth of the matter is, that there are different levels of experience in combat units. Those units react differently under fire. They don't all do exactly as they are told each and every time.
POS's main way to play this game is in QB's on ladders. He buys his units. Of course he wants units that do what he says everytime with no questions asked.
In a real combat unit that is an impossibility. Men want to live. Not just be little electronic blips on a computer screen.
Good Hunting.
MR
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POOR OLD SPIKE
Novice Tester
Member #2282
Joined: Jul 2005
Ratings: 9 / 1 / 10
Discussions: 36
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Post #491
6300 days, 7 hours, 52 minutes, 26 seconds ago
Mate, I admire your gall in daring to argue with me, but the fact remains I've topped 4 CM ladders in 500 battles over the past 4 years and you've.. er.. not.. ;)
However it's a free country so I leave it up to people who they want to listen to, me or you.. ;)
(modified 02/06/2007 08:35:50 by poor old spike)
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MAD RUSSIAN
Senior Tester
Member #468
Joined: Oct 2003
Ratings: 14 / 1 / 0
Discussions: 138
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Post #492
6300 days, 3 hours, 31 minutes, 28 seconds ago
Quote:
Originally posted by: poor old spike:
Mate, I admire your gall in daring to argue with me, but the fact remains I've topped 4 CM ladders in 500 battles over the past 4 years and you've.. er.. not.. ;)
However it's a free country so I leave it up to people who they want to listen to, me or you.. ;)
(modified 02/05/2007 11:28:31 by poor old spike)
So, yes, I agree with you, I say we let them decide.
Again I will say though, that ladder play has little to do with scenarios.
It's all a matter of preference anyway. I can see both sides of this coin. I prefer the more historical one because that's what I do. Others may chose a different path. I have no problem with that.
Good Hunting.
MR
(modified 02/11/2007 07:51:52 by Mad Russian)
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THE_ENIGMA
Junior Tester
Member #1775
Joined: Nov 2004
Ratings: 6 / 0 / 0
Discussions: 66
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Post #497
6296 days, 8 hours, 29 minutes, 29 seconds ago
Mines bigger then yours! I win!!
My take on exp, its fun to use all types ... a good mix is fun and adds some realism to the game.
When you have played a hell load of scenarios, playtesting them, doing it to review them, just wanting some fun or playing in a campaign you end up using most types of exp and unit.
So from my exp, the view of anything below Vet being crap is wrong.
While troops under Reg imo shouldnt be relied upon ... they can sure as hell hold there own and kick some backside.
Ive had Green and Conscript tankers hold there own, stay in place and shoot the crap out of the other sides tanks.
On the other hand ive had them reverse out of sight and never get a shot off whenever i put them in a good hull down position with a decent los.
My rule of thumb, infantry - ill vary there exp no problem to give that realistic factor to the game.
Tankers, due to the fact they do like to not fight and show too much "human emoition" of not wanting to die i will opt for Regs or Vets for gameplay reasons, to make it fun.
As for Rommel, he loved to disobey orders ... yet when it came down to moments when he should of .... he liked to listen to Herr Hitler, go figure 
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The Demolition ManQuote:
sgtgoody (esq)
I find that people will play the way they want. Make the OP that you want, if others like it, great, if not, well there is no accounting for taste is there?
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